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  1. #1
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    Opposing Authority

    Here is one for philosophical discussion but has practical applications. Some of us are very unhappy with the direction government is going. New bills before congress are creating new laws which some believe are simply moving our government in the direction of something very different from democracy or the republic we know and love.

    It is one thing to oppose these changes but quite another to disobey the laws and physically, actively refuse to obey the authorities representing the government.

    Is it ever right to break the law? If so, at what point do we decide that we will not obey the law? The way things are moving some here may have to make such decisions. Where and how do we draw the line? History may help us with such decisions.

    What is your view?
    "No matter how thirsty your imagination, mirages contain no water"

  2. #2
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    Having studied this subject for years there is no one correct answer. However in the majority of our Lands' rules and regulations for living a free life under a Replubic we are given the choice of opposing authority with the condition that we accept full responsibility. Even Marine Law and the UCMJ include this option.

    Typically the first people or groups of people that start to raise red flags as to something is not correct will be labeled as extremists or something to that matter and dismissed. As time progresses and more "middle of the bell curve types" join in, the subject is taken more seriously by both sides.

    The side that is doing the attempted persecution will take actions to queel the uprisers even to the point of using force of any means. So the first opposers will typically be sacrificed and pay a large price.

    Then, with others opposers continuning to join in, it becomes more a numbers game as to who is going to come out the other side. Sometimes the persecuters win because they squash the opposing force(s) as happens throughout this world. Sometimes the opposers win because life does like the positives and truth to pervail no matter how flaky that sounds. There is strength in good and weakness in evil. And, a few of those that have been in power and have known that bad doings have been going on typically will finally stand up and take a lead in correcting the situation, but not always.

    Typically, there is uprising in the streets, if you will, before any reformation of the abusers that are in power get tared and feathered.

    Referring to our present governmental situation, there is a tremendous amount of citizens that have no clue and are still, necessarily so, in a mind set that our Federal Government in todays present status will completely take care of them and all of their needs and desires.

    Since they have been raised that way, have had very few faces with reality since they started in public schools and at home, having them recognize or see any other point of view is almost impossible. Raised as a child they will continue to remain children and make children decisions that are base on what makes them feel good.

    I could go on but this is my two cents for now.
    "The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers it can bribe the public with the public's own money.
    - Alexis de Toqueville, 1835

  3. #3
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    I would think revolt could occur in a number of forms. Circumstances vary.

    As in the civil war, there were 2 very polarized sides divided by region. That was an actual political split, war just followed. I do see a worrisome level of polarization today, but lacking a clear regional divide. But if the civil war parallel were to hold, you would get your marching orders from whatever political leadership you would fall under. I do see how we could get there, especially with our 2 party system but it would seem so very distant as to be very unlikely. There is a lot of political 'gray area' and no big undecided issue at which we are at loggerheads to the extent or urgency that would lead to such a rash divide. No big regional divide either, we are probably better divided by rural/burbs/city/income than states or economic zones of interest. As Americans, we just continue to duke it out at the polls as we have for a very long time.


    It is hard to imagine a revolutionary war parallel, given our system of government. If the feds become really unpopular they can be voted out of office, again a political solution but no need for revolt of the nasty kind.

    A political coup of some sort,... now there you would get your rebellion. Rumors aside, I doubt that will happen. And there are rumors about obama, same as there were of GWB. Just rumors. Ambitions may be real but tend to be complicated again by our political system.

    Catastrophic chaos of some sort seems most likely to result in mass revolt. That would be in the form of some war gone bad, like an invasion from china following some spat in tiawan. Or perhaps a devastating disease or natural disaster of biblical proportions,... say a comet hitting earth or a really full-blown nuclear terrorist attack. But I mean utter chaos of the kind where we all knew, "things are NOT going to return to normal". Alas, one day I would like to try my hand at writing a novel...

    But Hugh, you did not clearly define what you mean by 'opposing authority'. Are you talking about armed insurrection or Jay-Walking across the street? In many cases of mass nose-thumbing at the law you have a situation where individuals did not simply decide to become revolutionaries by any stretch of the imagination, but were instead just 'criminalized' by an overbearing government. Example: Prohibition. That was an ugly time in US history, and Prohibition was also repealed after much grief. War on drugs, similar problem but not so wide-spread perhaps. Excessive taxes, if you cannot pay because you do not have the money then there is little choice but to become a scoff-law on the issue of taxes. Lead-foots feel oppressed by speed-limits so hammer-down for them and damm the consequences. To simply oppose authority is a matter of severity, but I do think most of us already do to some degree or another. To criminalize behavior from the government, that is really hard to do with our political system as much as some in power might like to do so. We do, in fact, have a really great political system given to us by those who have gone before us. YAY!

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tool-Slinger View Post
    As in the civil war, there were 2 very polarized sides divided by region. That was an actual political split, war just followed. I do see a worrisome level of polarization today, but lacking a clear regional divide.
    Neat reply.

    I see a hard-to-define polaraziation in this nation. And it's been growing up, actually growing up, over the last 20 to 30 years. Obama's recent election is a result of this newly come-of-age polarazition.

    It's a difficult polaraztion to see and/or define because it does not rely on surface issues such as regions, outward beliefs, race or religion or a different form of governing.

    It is built rather on a life style and intellectual acceptance of laziness and a lack of discipline in the art of analytical thinking.

    And in my simplistic way of describing this new condition I start with Dr. Spock, who wrote a book on parenting. In it he described that children should not be spanked, period.

    It's not that he wrote the book. It's that a ton of parents of his generation started a movement to let "experts" with various degrees tell them how to think and how to act. This started to displace ordinaly learning and thinking and the associated responsibilities of ones own life.

    Those parents raised childern who were allowed to not feel and experience much of any of the benefits of the ability to fail in life. And the ability to get back up, try again and succeed.

    Point being, this generation of all ages that bought into that belief system has now come to voting age and elected a president who is backed up by a congress who is gradualy replacing the individuals rights in order to focus on the control and action of the "all" in comformity.

    So we have two distinct followers, if you will. One is the group of all ages that believe that individual rights is what it's all about. And they are willing to pay the price for and receive the benefits to that system.

    Then we have the entitlement oriented group that believes that some form of government is there to take care of us. In other words they want a guaranteed life at the cost of freedoms they take for granted and most likely don't or can't understand.

    And the other followers want individual freedoms and are willing to tolerate and/or pay for the costs of that individual freedom.

    This country is divided.

    My fear is that the ones being turned off presently by the fact that Obama is not fullfilling their desires and his promises, as they understood them in their own minds and lives, they still have the same mind set and will elect another like him in the next go around.

    I dont' see any reason for this not to be unless these folks start to understand what the cost of freedom is and how it truly benefits them. With their lives history, they have not way to do that, me thinks.

    This group that voted for Obama grew up thinking that milk comes from Safeway; that college is the key to high pay and intelligence; that skilled hands on workers are not desirable or needed; that being disciplined in a long term career in not necessary since all wisdom now is found on the internet; that access to jobs, rights, desires, circumstances, food on the table, promotions, healthcare, autos, access to sufficent money and housing is a given. And that there is no cause and effect in life. So if they want something they have a right to it without concern as to who is going to pay or even if there is a cost at all.
    "The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers it can bribe the public with the public's own money.
    - Alexis de Toqueville, 1835

  5. #5
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    If law calls for one to do contrary to what God says, we are obligated to violate that law by whatever means necessary.

    The law of this land is the Constitution. If we are called to disobey Constitutional Law by Presidential administrations, we are obligated by the Constitution to violate that law and do all we can to remove that administration by whatever means necessary.
    No reserve. No retreat. No regrets.

    For those who have fought for it, freedom has a sweetness the protected will never know.

    http://www.airwarvietnam.com/16thSOSGunners2.jpg

    Proud member of KA Club

  6. #6
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    Another historical example that came to my mind was the extermination of the mentally ill and then jews by the government in Germany. They made what they did legal and then followed thru with what we consider murder.

    Many germans knew what was going on and even the church leaders, pastors chose to ignore the killings. A very few Luthern pastors opposed the government and had to do so in secret. They worked behind the scenes to oppose the Nazi government even to the point of participating in assisination attemps on Hitler.

    I guess my interest is in determining at what point is revolt against government the "right" thing to do? Or, is it never right?
    "No matter how thirsty your imagination, mirages contain no water"

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh B View Post
    Another historical example that came to my mind was the extermination of the mentally ill and then jews by the government in Germany. They made what they did legal and then followed thru with what we consider murder.

    Many germans knew what was going on and even the church leaders, pastors chose to ignore the killings. A very few Luthern pastors opposed the government and had to do so in secret. They worked behind the scenes to oppose the Nazi government even to the point of participating in assisination attemps on Hitler.

    I guess my interest is in determining at what point is revolt against government the "right" thing to do? Or, is it never right?
    Hugh, most people aren't aware of the extermination of the physically and mentally ill by Hitler in his early days. And a lot of people don't believe it ever happened.

    Did you ever see the picture of a mans arm that was digging in the dirt to get out of a burning barn when Hitler ordered his troops to round up these folks, put them in out building and burn the building down because ammunition cost too much.

    Everyone should see that picture and understand the story and reason behind that picture. It should wake a lot of people up on how easy it is for this stuff to sneak into our American systems.

    I think, for me, the point of revolting is an individual decision also base on opportunity. If I had opportunity such as a group of others getting together to protest, write letters, etc, I would have already started. I don't understand how a lot of Americans are taking recent events into stride.
    "The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers it can bribe the public with the public's own money.
    - Alexis de Toqueville, 1835

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeltaT View Post
    Neat reply.

    I see a hard-to-define polaraziation in this nation. And it's been growing up, actually growing up, over the last 20 to 30 years. Obama's recent election is a result of this newly come-of-age polarazition.

    It's a difficult polaraztion to see and/or define because it does not rely on surface issues such as regions, outward beliefs, race or religion or a different form of governing.

    It is built rather on a life style and intellectual acceptance of laziness and a lack of discipline in the art of analytical thinking.

    And in my simplistic way of describing this new condition I start with Dr. Spock, who wrote a book on parenting. In it he described that children should not be spanked, period.

    It's not that he wrote the book. It's that a ton of parents of his generation started a movement to let "experts" with various degrees tell them how to think and how to act. This started to displace ordinaly learning and thinking and the associated responsibilities of ones own life.

    Those parents raised childern who were allowed to not feel and experience much of any of the benefits of the ability to fail in life. And the ability to get back up, try again and succeed.

    Point being, this generation of all ages that bought into that belief system has now come to voting age and elected a president who is backed up by a congress who is gradualy replacing the individuals rights in order to focus on the control and action of the "all" in comformity.

    So we have two distinct followers, if you will. One is the group of all ages that believe that individual rights is what it's all about. And they are willing to pay the price for and receive the benefits to that system.

    Then we have the entitlement oriented group that believes that some form of government is there to take care of us. In other words they want a guaranteed life at the cost of freedoms they take for granted and most likely don't or can't understand.

    And the other followers want individual freedoms and are willing to tolerate and/or pay for the costs of that individual freedom.

    This country is divided.

    My fear is that the ones being turned off presently by the fact that Obama is not fullfilling their desires and his promises, as they understood them in their own minds and lives, they still have the same mind set and will elect another like him in the next go around.

    I dont' see any reason for this not to be unless these folks start to understand what the cost of freedom is and how it truly benefits them. With their lives history, they have not way to do that, me thinks.

    This group that voted for Obama grew up thinking that milk comes from Safeway; that college is the key to high pay and intelligence; that skilled hands on workers are not desirable or needed; that being disciplined in a long term career in not necessary since all wisdom now is found on the internet; that access to jobs, rights, desires, circumstances, food on the table, promotions, healthcare, autos, access to sufficent money and housing is a given. And that there is no cause and effect in life. So if they want something they have a right to it without concern as to who is going to pay or even if there is a cost at all.
    Thought-provoking,... Good shot at explaining our 'divisions'. I can revise my earlier comment on the civil-war angle to say that [with your input] there could come a sort of "tipping-point" between the two sides and confrontation could come surprisingly fast. Political 'change' has certainly happened fast of late and I had attributed that to the pendulum effect of political swings. I may have erred, to some significant degree.

    If the 'takers' get the political clout to suddenly start running hard-shod over the 'makers' then indeed there could be trouble very abruptly. Disturbing thought. Perhaps as simple as a 51% majority? Maybe. A quick reveiw of the current administration's goals would indeed indicate a serious reallocation of personal property, to the fed and the 'takers' [For lack or a better label on short notice.]. It could result in an all-out revolt, tax this, tax that, penalty here, fee there,... and all this time 'takers' gleefully supporting the freebies they get as their portion of the free-booting in the name of 'majority rule'. That would wreck the economy, but seems to be warned to deaf ears. If that happened, at some point pockets will simply be emptied as none are bottomless. And there would be a lot of really mad folks on both sides. All theoretical, but yes, I can see where there could become such a 'tipping-point' and everything could unravel in a short period of time, say 2 years. Not a pleasant thought.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh B View Post
    Another historical example that came to my mind was the extermination of the mentally ill and then jews by the government in Germany. They made what they did legal and then followed thru with what we consider murder.

    Many germans knew what was going on and even the church leaders, pastors chose to ignore the killings. A very few Luthern pastors opposed the government and had to do so in secret. They worked behind the scenes to oppose the Nazi government even to the point of participating in assisination attemps on Hitler.

    I guess my interest is in determining at what point is revolt against government the "right" thing to do? Or, is it never right?
    I expect you will know when the time is right, because you think about it and consider it. Of course, it is ill advised to become a stand-off subject even if you are 'in the right'. At some point you skirt laws, at some point you keep your mouth shut about things, it is a personal decision and there is no clear 'boundary' as to where a line has been crossed... Except where you decide to draw it. You are not alone, we all must piddle with our own silly lines in the sand.

  10. #10
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    If any rule or law comes along that puts my family in danger that is when i will step in and call it a day.

    I just hope nothing happens for a long time, I am just about to get my certs and I want a nice long career in HVAC/R so maybe in like 40 years we can all start revolting.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by adamste81 View Post
    If any rule or law comes along that puts my family in danger that is when i will step in and call it a day.

    I just hope nothing happens for a long time, I am just about to get my certs and I want a nice long career in HVAC/R so maybe in like 40 years we can all start revolting.
    Just talking theory, I doubt anyone here thinks this is a upcoming event. We do worry about it, I know I do, but we live in the most stable nation on earth.

    Family first, good point.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by adamste81 View Post
    If any rule or law comes along that puts my family in danger that is when i will step in and call it a day.
    DUDE! We're WAY past that.
    No reserve. No retreat. No regrets.

    For those who have fought for it, freedom has a sweetness the protected will never know.

    http://www.airwarvietnam.com/16thSOSGunners2.jpg

    Proud member of KA Club

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh B View Post
    Another historical example that came to my mind was the extermination of the mentally ill and then jews by the government in Germany. They made what they did legal and then followed thru with what we consider murder.

    Many germans knew what was going on and even the church leaders, pastors chose to ignore the killings. A very few Luthern pastors opposed the government and had to do so in secret. They worked behind the scenes to oppose the Nazi government even to the point of participating in assisination attemps on Hitler.

    I guess my interest is in determining at what point is revolt against government the "right" thing to do? Or, is it never right?
    As HVAC guys we know all that is needed for an uncontrolled Explosion is a combination of Fuel, Oxygen and an Ignition source

    By order of importance to the populace ........I believe that.
    Stepping on any of these would start the uncontrolled explosion

    The 2nd-1st or 16th amendments will incite a complete uprising and as you put it the "right" thing to do.

    There is already a revolt in progress as seen at the (Town Halls,Tea Party's) due to this administration attempting to trample the 16th, with Obama's egotistical Heath Reform proposals.........Fuel


    He's also pushing the limits with the 1st.... by appointing an FCC Diversity Czar. to quell the rumble from conservative radio talk show .........Oxygen

    If they attempt another Gun Ban...Ignition Source...

    BOOM....

    These are dangerous times........

    Good thread Hugh

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