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  1. #1
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    Question Kysor-Warren -- Enviroguard !!

    OK don't drill me on the terminology of the title to this thread, and forgive me for improper terminology in the rest of this message! but if you are one who could do so I'd probably want to hear from you!

    Got a new K-W rack M# TD430-089-SC-5-NVH-B S# 0901000738, It's a MT rack split suction, Remote air cooled, controlled with CPC Einstein 2, also has the "tyler enviroguard like" "SPR" type system(no flow through or surge type reciever)

    Drop Leg has solenoid that opens line to low pressure reciever type thing

    Correct me if I'm wrong but I wanna know if i got this..... SPR solenoid opens dumping charge in to reciever/tank when sub cooling rises to reduce amount of juice in the condenser thus resulting in what it would result in.

    The Kysor Warren book supplied had nothing on this set up in it.

    If I am correct in this set up what are the control parameters for an E2? Dropleg pressure and drop leg temperature are calculated electronically in to drop leg sub cooling which controls a relay output for SPR solenoid?

    Does anyone have any kysor literature on this item?

    My service call, I get to store and the reciever is full, I think i may have a mechanical problem with the solenoid (sporlan MB6) I think that may be the cause but I want to verify operation and I need to know how exactly how do execute that though.

    Thanks
    Mike
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  2. #2
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    It sounds like Envirguaurd 3. I assume you do not have an SPR Valve and Solenoid NO which Enviroguard 2, rather a NC solenoid only, dumping from drop leg to receiver which is Enviroguard 3?

    Drop Leg Temp Subtracted by Drop Leg Saturated Temp, (gotten by converting the pressure to the temperature). Bear in mind the offset to the transducer based on length of vertical drop from condenser header. This gives you the subcooling. Set at 14.9 Degrees. 1 to 2 minute Time Delay. Set up in Sensor Control.

    Above 14.9 dumps to receiver, Below does not. Normally Closed Solenoid. Very Important to know that, because it defines the version.

    In the Evniroguard 2 version, if the condenser got plugged, it would false the SPR Valve and would dump to the receiver. The NO Solenoid on version 2 was to close the flow, under low ambient conditions, sort of an overide of the SPR Valve itself.

    I have ripped out SPR Valves when they go bad from people fiddling with them , turned them into a version 3, using the NO solenoid, just reversing the logic. And some guys will get thrown off at that.

    PSI Offset per feet of vertical, I can get for you later if you need it. I have a book laying around I can copy later and PDF it you if you want.

  3. #3
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    I think What I have is the EG3, I only mentioned SPR because I thought that is what the NC solenoid(Sporlan B6, manusl stem) is referred to (system pressure regulator) but i guess it doesn't regulate anything the computer does haha!

    If you have a pdf of that it would be sweet, Not too sure on the vert drop but it's in the 15 to 20 foot range I'll have to check, i have yet to see the condenser.

    I'll have to check the programming and possibly put a kit in that solenoid I believe it may have stuck open

    Thanks dow,
    mike
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeySq View Post
    I think What I have is the EG3, I only mentioned SPR because I thought that is what the NC solenoid(Sporlan B6, manusl stem) is referred to (system pressure regulator) but i guess it doesn't regulate anything the computer does haha!

    If you have a pdf of that it would be sweet, Not too sure on the vert drop but it's in the 15 to 20 foot range I'll have to check, i have yet to see the condenser.

    I'll have to check the programming and possibly put a kit in that solenoid I believe it may have stuck open

    Thanks dow,
    mike
    You might also check that refrigerant leaves the receiver when compressors are running. The Tyler racks I've worked on with enviroguard have a capillary tube feed from the receiver to the suction header. This continually adds refrigerant to the main loop whenever a compressor is running. (interlocked at the compressor contactors.) The idea is that if you keep adding refrigerant AND you don't have to remove it periodically, you must have a leak. If the cap tube isn't feeding then the refrigerant would only return to the receiver not leave it.

  5. #5
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    Yeah the solenoid is working and the cap tube is feeding fine.

    When you said "I must havea leak" were you referring that the refrigerant must leak from the reciever to the operational part of the system

    Or I have a leak in my system losing refrigerant to the atmosphere?

    As for the first the solenoid is opening and emptying fine but as we all know if that reciever fills up full it would take a dam long time to get that juice back in to the system through the cap tube. That's besides the point if the tank fills full you got a problem for sure!!

    As for refrigerant leak this is a new system which held a N2 pressure test for 3 days and held a good vaccuum on the micron gauge, less than 2 weeks ago so I hope there's no leaks

    Dow, Where would he control for this system in an E2 be located? Undere the Sensors Menu? I'm not sure if it's programmed in?? What would it be labeled as possibly? Surge Control?


    Oh and sort of off topic I thought this setup which I speak of is "Tyler Proprety" what's it doing on a Kysor Rack?

    Mike
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeySq View Post
    Yeah the solenoid is working and the cap tube is feeding fine.

    When you said "I must havea leak" were you referring that the refrigerant must leak from the reciever to the operational part of the system

    YES

    Or I have a leak in my system losing refrigerant to the atmosphere?

    As for the first the solenoid is opening and emptying fine but as we all know if that reciever fills up full it would take a dam long time to get that juice back in to the system through the cap tube. That's besides the point if the tank fills full you got a problem for sure!!

    As for refrigerant leak this is a new system which held a N2 pressure test for 3 days and held a good vaccuum on the micron gauge, less than 2 weeks ago so I hope there's no leaks

    Dow, Where would he control for this system in an E2 be located? Undere the Sensors Menu? I'm not sure if it's programmed in?? What would it be labeled as possibly? Surge Control?


    Oh and sort of off topic I thought this setup which I speak of is "Tyler Proprety" what's it doing on a Kysor Rack?

    Mike
    I doubt you have a leak, what I meant was that the idea behind the design of the enviroguard is to detect major leaks and alarm.

    I converted an old E1 system that had a separate enviroguard control board to work E2 style when the enviroguard board went bad and Tyler told us it was backordered for 6 weeks. I had to enter new logic modules and if I remember correctly I created a module to convert the high side pressure to its saturated temp, then a module to subtract the drop leg temp, then a module to open the valve and transfer refrigerant if subcooling was greater than 15 degrees for x minutes. (We later changed that to 7 degrees)

    You say this is a new system. Did the receiver filling cause a problem with refrigeration?

    It does take a long time for refrigerant to feed back into the circuit, that is a problem in areas like ours (Iowa) that can go from 75 degrees to 30 degrees in less than 8 hours.

    I know it takes 24 hours or more for a newly charged rack to settle out. Tyler gave us two different sets of instructions on charging depending on outside temp. We had to override some setpoints on the fans and spr valve during the charging too.

  7. #7
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    When you have a receiver full of liquid when the system fails somehow, all you have to do is pump the receiver out to suction with some hoses. Most systems deploying enviroguard will have tap on the bullhead so you can pull it quickly back into the system.

    The vertical lift offset is very important. I have been working nights this week so I have not had anytime to get the info. I will post it over the weekend.

  8. #8
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    On E3, at 40 ambient or below, it will not dump, you have an override in program to stop the cycling of the dump valve.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob_scheel View Post
    You say this is a new system. Did the receiver filling cause a problem with refrigeration?
    yeah with the reciever full there wasn't enough liquid available in the "operational" part of the system to feed the cases properly. That's normal for this situation

    Quote Originally Posted by bob_scheel View Post
    It does take a long time for refrigerant to feed back into the circuit, that is a problem in areas like ours (Iowa) that can go from 75 degrees to 30 degrees in less than 8 hours.

    I know it takes 24 hours or more for a newly charged rack to settle out. Tyler gave us two different sets of instructions on charging depending on outside temp. We had to override some setpoints on the fans and spr valve during the charging too.
    it's been running a few weeks


    Quote Originally Posted by Dowadudda View Post
    On E3, at 40 ambient or below, it will not dump, you have an override in program to stop the cycling of the dump valve.
    I don't knowanything about the CPC-E2 programming for this so i guess i'm gonna try and find out

    Quote Originally Posted by Dowadudda View Post
    When you have a receiver full of liquid when the system fails somehow, all you have to do is pump the receiver out to suction with some hoses. Most systems deploying enviroguard will have tap on the bullhead so you can pull it quickly back into the system.
    This one is pretty neat, couple ball valves and it's done in no time actually, I'll put up a pic or two, Large ball valve at receiver outlet (if it were like a surge type reciever) which is closed in normal operation and a 5/8 line from discharge header to the top of the header also with a ball valve closed for normal operation

    Quote Originally Posted by Dowadudda View Post
    The vertical lift offset is very important. I have been working nights this week so I have not had anytime to get the info. I will post it over the weekend.
    no problem man I know how busy one can be, I've been stacked with work myself. I have 2 days there next Tuesday and on Wednesday when the store opens so I'll be there 2 full days fixing some bugs then i should have sometime to play around and investigate

    Mike
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  10. #10
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    Thanks for that info Dow, I Guess where this is "Tyler" property on a Kysor built rack It is a little different. There was no programming for the "SPR" solenoid on the E2 Programming from Kysor, I guess that makes sense. I guess they can build it on thier rack for what the customer wants but they can't set it up??

    So the Reciever dump solenoid is fine and wired in to come on if any Compressor is running just like i a tyler, That's fine.

    The "SPR" Solenoid is wired in a Series/parallel Circuit using 3 CPC relays N/O contacts. As it sits now It's programmed like this.

    There are 2 paths to energize the "SPR" Solenoid.

    #1 path two relays, normal operation the condensing pressure has to be above a determined set point to close relay #1, then Relay #2 will close when the subcooling setpoint is reached, thus bringing on the "SPR" dumping the excess charge to the reciever.

    #2 Path one relay, This is a saftey feature that wil close a set of contacts on Relay #3 to energize the "SPR" solenoid in cases of abnormally high head pressures.

    The Setpoints that are in there now were entered by the CPC guy which had a program that he had from another guy that recently set up this same rack in a sister store. I think there will need to be some tweaking to set this up the proper way as tyler designed it. This is what's in there now.

    Relay #1 on when Condenser pressure is 175# or above
    Relay #2 on when dropleg sub cooling reaches 15*F subcooling, off at 14.9*F subcooling(no delay)
    Relay #3 on when condensing pressure reaches 275#

    I have not yet entered in a offset for condenser riser, The way to do that is take the #of feet in rise, half it then enter that number in as a negative offset on the transducer, (example 15 foo riser = -7.5 Offset)

    My condenser fans are not set properly yet. There is an issue that before the "SPR" solenoid will energize all condenser fans will have to be running so with fans controlled with pressure now There's going to have to be some tricky numbers involved to set this up properly me thinks! Tyler want's to see 60*F condensing setpoint for MT rack and 45*F condensing for LT rack with hot gas defrost and to be honest I'm a little scared to run the fans that much in the winter up here(Toronto) with Our low ambient temps. There's lots of these type systems up here so I'm sure someone knows!!

    Oh and this isn't a perfect copy of EGIII because there's no receiver vent!!

    Mike
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  11. #11
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    The way I usually do the condenser fan issue is make the output for the solenoid the last set of fans. So if you have 5 pair of fans, program 6, making the SPR solenoid the 6th. That takes the place of your relay #1 and #3 in your explanation.

    Don't forget low ambient override too. You do not want to cycle below 30 degrees. So there are a few ways you can do that but I make it simple by having another ouput N.C. in sensor control to open at 30 degree ambient or below, denergizing SPR solenoid. This in effect cancels out the problem of the vent solenoid being needed. At 30 degrees and all your fans are on, your gonna have a lot of nice subcooling.
    Last edited by Dowadudda; 09-04-2009 at 07:40 PM.

  12. #12
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    I have been trying to follow you guys, but I have never seen one of these Enviro-whatzit racks.

    Any documentation that I can get my mitts on to read?

  13. #13
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    You might find some info here.http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=163159
    I love the smell of phosgene first thing in the morning:

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    Educational forums are open.

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