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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
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    Low pressure recovery

    I am having a "discussion" with my boss, more of an argument really, over how to recover and clean R-11 and 123. When I worked for Trane and we had to pull the gas from a machine, I would have a specialty recovery company owned by a friend of mine recover the gas and leave it onsite so we could put it back into the machine when we had completed repairs. A lot of the time, if the gas had no moisture, air or oil in it, I would just charge it back into the machine as liquid (chilled water pump running and vapor charge from deep vacuum to 16" Hg, then liquid for the rest of the charge). If there was excessive moisture, or especially oil, I would distill it back in as vapor through a four core shell and just leave a 3/4" hose hooked up to the machine with a band heater around the recovery tank and just let it go for a day and a half or so until it all went in. It takes time of course, but the assurance was that the gas was clean and oil free, plus I always had other jobs to work on, so it wasn't like I babysat the operation.

    So anyway, his argument goes that a recovery company should be able to come in, pull the gas, clean it, get the air out and put it back in the machine for me without me ever touching it. All in 8 hours and for the same price my friend is charging. The machine charge is 900 lb. and his price is $1500. Are there companies out there that drag exotic distillation equipment onsite and can do that in 8 hours for that price? Like I said, I've only dealt with my buddy and he always did me right and I want to continue giving him business.

    How do you guys do it?
    Low Pressure Forever!

    If you know heavy metal, you can work anywhere-Dave Andreson

    Anchors Aweigh my boys, Anchors Aweigh!
    Farewell to foreign shores, We sail at break of day. Through our last night on shore, Drink to the foam. Until we meet once more. Here's wishing you a happy voyage home!

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Dixiana, AL
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    2,609
    Settle all doubt and call Airgas (CFC Refimax), Refron, or Hudson Technologies, and get a price on doing the cleanup. I think your chief will find that his perception is just that - a perception. Uncontaminated refgt is one thing, but cleanup on contaminated stuff can get rather pricey, all because of one question - how much ????????????? is in the refgt.

    Why don't y'all spring for the price of a recovery machine and some drums and filter shells, and do it yourself on small amounts of recovered refgt? Reftec makes some good large tonnage recovery eqpt.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
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    Florida
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    540
    Quote Originally Posted by klove View Post
    Settle all doubt and call Airgas (CFC Refimax), Refron, or Hudson Technologies, and get a price on doing the cleanup. I think your chief will find that his perception is just that - a perception. Uncontaminated refgt is one thing, but cleanup on contaminated stuff can get rather pricey, all because of one question - how much ????????????? is in the refgt.

    Why don't y'all spring for the price of a recovery machine and some drums and filter shells, and do it yourself on small amounts of recovered refgt? Reftec makes some good large tonnage recovery eqpt.
    I don't think it's really contaminated. The machine is full of air, so there may be some moisture. My bigger concern is oil. I wanted to just repair the leak (rupture disk) and start the machine and use the purge to get the air out. It was his idea to pull the gas and clean it. It's a new account we're trying to get, so I wanted to keep the cost down as much as possible before we start getting them to drop some money on plant upgrades. The chiller division of my company is still in it's fledgling state. I am going to have to get quite a few more accounts before I can convince them to start buying the specialized tools I need. Right now, I'm pushing for a portable boiler to leak check machines and getting some flak about it. I'm giving them a year to see if they are really onboard and serious about the chiller business, or just another HVAC contractor playing chiller contractor.

    Oops, did I just say that?

    Sorry, I have no inner monologue.
    Low Pressure Forever!

    If you know heavy metal, you can work anywhere-Dave Andreson

    Anchors Aweigh my boys, Anchors Aweigh!
    Farewell to foreign shores, We sail at break of day. Through our last night on shore, Drink to the foam. Until we meet once more. Here's wishing you a happy voyage home!

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    windy city
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    hudson will cost more than you doing it yourself, especialy if you can keep busy elsewere. as far as a portable pressurizer or pressurepak, build your own. we made a couple, it's really no big deal. and while you're distilling a charge, build yourself a dehydrator.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Florida
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    Quote Originally Posted by heavymetaldad View Post
    hudson will cost more than you doing it yourself, especialy if you can keep busy elsewere. as far as a portable pressurizer or pressurepak, build your own. we made a couple, it's really no big deal. and while you're distilling a charge, build yourself a dehydrator.
    I was thinking about building my own pressurizer using a spa heater with a Taco or Grundfoss pump. Do you have a parts list for the one you built?

    Here's something similar to the heater I was going to use:

    http://cgi.ebay.com/Raypak-11-KW-Ele...d=p3286.c0.m14
    Low Pressure Forever!

    If you know heavy metal, you can work anywhere-Dave Andreson

    Anchors Aweigh my boys, Anchors Aweigh!
    Farewell to foreign shores, We sail at break of day. Through our last night on shore, Drink to the foam. Until we meet once more. Here's wishing you a happy voyage home!

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Mixing oil and fire with a big spoon.
    Posts
    4,258
    any more, i run the refrigerant through a 2 core drier IN AND OUT of the tanks. if you are just doing it for the sake of leak repairs, i would imagine that this is good enough. if it really is a major contamination then of course you want a specialty company.

    as far as recharging the unit....why pay someone else to do it? you are already there...you are sweeping the floors, getting your personal tools/equipment out, finishing paperwork, etc. It seems that you are on top of your time and making every minute count...sounds like the boss is just not very comfortable with big iron yet or the tools and equipment required.

    good luck.
    my 1st time jumping out of a plane...http://youtu.be/Kv38G0MHsGo

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
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    I am unsure myself
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    Quote Originally Posted by jayguy View Post
    any more, i run the refrigerant through a 2 core drier IN AND OUT of the tanks. if you are just doing it for the sake of leak repairs, i would imagine that this is good enough. if it really is a major contamination then of course you want a specialty company.

    as far as recharging the unit....why pay someone else to do it? you are already there...you are sweeping the floors, getting your personal tools/equipment out, finishing paperwork, etc. It seems that you are on top of your time and making every minute count...sounds like the boss is just not very comfortable with big iron yet or the tools and equipment required.

    good luck.
    Sorry Jay for one of the first times I disagree if its a major contamination sell em a new charge and have the old one destroyed. You can spend all weekend distilling a charge or reclaiming it. Note I didn't say recovering







    As to the company that chiller whisperer uses that can recover 900 lbs and recharge in 8 hours I call major BS

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Florida
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    Quote Originally Posted by mustardman View Post
    As to the company that chiller whisperer uses that can recover 900 lbs and recharge in 8 hours I call major BS
    Actually, the guy that I want to use will take 8 hours to pull the charge and have the machine down to 29". Then I would go in the next morning, break with nitrogen and do the repair and start distilling by noon. Finish up the distillation by early afternoon on the third day and start the machine.
    Low Pressure Forever!

    If you know heavy metal, you can work anywhere-Dave Andreson

    Anchors Aweigh my boys, Anchors Aweigh!
    Farewell to foreign shores, We sail at break of day. Through our last night on shore, Drink to the foam. Until we meet once more. Here's wishing you a happy voyage home!

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Mixing oil and fire with a big spoon.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mustardman View Post
    Sorry Jay for one of the first times I disagree if its a major contamination sell em a new charge and have the old one destroyed. You can spend all weekend distilling a charge or reclaiming it. Note I didn't say recovering







    As to the company that chiller whisperer uses that can recover 900 lbs and recharge in 8 hours I call major BS
    yeah....but i still agree with you!

    we did use a company to distill and clean up a broken tube chiller once....ONCE! i agree, if it is major then you should replace. i have distilled charges if it was just an oil thingy. if i know ahead of time, i start distilling after i recover and after a couple of days (sometimes...i distill real slow) it is ready to go.
    my 1st time jumping out of a plane...http://youtu.be/Kv38G0MHsGo

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
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    Dixiana, AL
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChillerWisperer View Post
    Actually, the guy that I want to use will take 8 hours to pull the charge and have the machine down to 29". Then I would go in the next morning, break with nitrogen and do the repair and start distilling by noon. Finish up the distillation by early afternoon on the third day and start the machine.
    Tell your boss he'd be money ahead to take that $1500 and put it toward eqpt to support this line of work he's committed to performing. Suck it up and sink the necessary funding in now, and let it pay for itself in the future. Simple fact is, heavy metal ain't cheap, but it pays good returns if he can get past arguing with himself over the expenditure.

    And I do what all of these posts combined are saying. Good refgt, no big deal (might filter anyway, just out of general principle). Marginal moisture/acid, out and in thru RCW or HH cores (sidestream operational cleanup kits, too). Particulate, molded core and Pall wound yarn filter in a modified drier shell out/in (possibly distilled, depending on amount of particulate and how small). Oil, distilled during recharge. Badly contaminated with anything, call the refgt recovery company and swap charges with them, or have them do it on site.


    Jay: Not to knock your team or nothin', but I like your other pictures better................

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
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    windy city
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChillerWisperer View Post
    I was thinking about building my own pressurizer using a spa heater with a Taco or Grundfoss pump. Do you have a parts list for the one you built?

    Here's something similar to the heater I was going to use:

    http://cgi.ebay.com/Raypak-11-KW-Ele...d=p3286.c0.m14
    it's off on another job at the far end of town. it was a 480 water heater, with a small 120 pump and control circuit, all mounted on a 2 wheeler. needs a 480v, 30a 3phase and 120v,15a single circuits. when it comes back, i'll make a list and snap a coupla pics.
    i do have a cold trap at my job site. that i can make a material list and provide pics

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Central Texas
    Posts
    627
    The hot box we use is made from a 208 V cir pump, 45A elements, 3 stage, 1 phase. Can be difficult wiring into a panel, not to bad heats pretty good, a little slow on R-123.
    Sic Semper Tyrannis.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
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    Mixing oil and fire with a big spoon.
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    Quote Originally Posted by klove View Post
    ...Jay: Not to knock your team or nothin', but I like your other pictures better................




    SIX-BURGH!!
    my 1st time jumping out of a plane...http://youtu.be/Kv38G0MHsGo

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