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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
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    37

    Heat Pump Match System

    My split system heat pump is not functioning. The HVAC repair person says I need to replace the indoor unit. The indoor unit is 20 years old. But the outoor condenser is less than 5 years old. The outdoor unit is a 2.5 ton, 10 S.E.E.R Payne unit. The repair person then tells me by Florida law they must replace the outdoor unit as well. Now I understand the lowest SEER now is 13. And I understand you do not get SEER 13 if you mix a 13 with something less than 13. But that seeemed suspicious to me, so I called the city mechanical inspector. The inspector said in order to pull a permit you had to show that the indoor and outdoor unit are a match set. He mentioned getting a letter from the manufacture showing they are a match. He also mentioned going to the ARI Website. I did not see on the ARI website where to tell if a system is a match or not. At the ARI website I could not find my Payne unit. My outdoor unit is Payne Model Number PH10JA030. How can I find a 3 ton 13 S.E.E.R indoor unit that would be a match. And how would I show proof.

    Thanks in advance,
    Robert

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Cedar Grove, Wi-Sheboygan
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    1,582
    The contractor should be able to run the number on the ARI site to show proof that the indoor and outdoor equipment is a matched pair. Since your condensing unit is fairly new he should not have a problem putting in the proper air handler/furnace and matching coil for the outdoor condenser and make it all legal for the inspector.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    37
    Question,

    I would like to have more information before discussing this with the contractor again. How does one verify matches using ARI. It was not obvious to me. I went to Heat Pump and Coil and entered my unit, but nothing was found.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
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    AHRI doesn't have records for obsolete equipment. That staement is listed on the upper left corner of your search results. That 10 SEER condenser is obsolete.

    The Payne dealer will have to find you an indoor coil that can fit in your air handler. Won't be an AHRI match.

    A heat pump should have a matching indoor coil for best performance and longevity.

    Take care.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by rwbil View Post
    The inspector said in order to pull a permit you had to show that the indoor and outdoor unit are a match set.
    The permit is for the new system going in, not the old one coming out.

    You need to show the inspector that the NEW system is an AHRI matched set to get a permit.

    Good luck.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Office and warehouse in both Crystal River & New Port Richey ,FL
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    18,836
    This is an interesting question.

    Florida does require a matched system,AHRI or mfrs letter,engineer seal,etc..

    10 SEER units that were built before,January 2006( I think,not sure about date,can still be installed,if they are a matched system.

    So if an air handler,can be matched ( per what I stated above)with that outdoor unit,I think you are okay.

    My email is in my profile,send me the complete model of the outdoor unit,and I'll check,or post it here and someone may check.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    37
    Gary,

    The contractor claimed the indoor unit was so old he could not find a 10 SEER coil to match and if he could it would cost a fortune for the coil. This gets a little more complicated becasue the indoor unit is covered by American Home Shield and the way AHS works is that they supply the unit to the contractor. But AHS usually replaces with a Payne unit. So may question is if ARI does not show obsolete units, then how would one find a documented building permit allowed matching new 13 SEER indoor unit to my older 10 SEER condensor. Or are you saying I should be able to get the 10 SEER coil and that he is not telling the truth when he says he can not get it or it would be a fortune to get one. He even said they would probably have to custom make one.

    At this point I am thinking about just buying both the indoor and outdoor units myself (at a much lower cost than this contractor wants to charge) and just pay a HVAC technician to hook them up. I feel like this company is milking me to death in fees such as $ for a platform for the indoor unit. The existing wood platform is as big as the closest. You could not even make a bigger platform and it still fit in the closet. And if you had to build another platform due to height, I do not think it is worth $ in wood and less than 1 hour in labor to build.
    Last edited by beenthere; 08-04-2009 at 04:09 PM. Reason: Removed prices.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Office and warehouse in both Crystal River & New Port Richey ,FL
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    18,836
    So, a warranty company,I was wondering how they were going to handle this code change in Florida.

    What does the warranty company say about the code?

    Can't say about what you service provider wants to charge,pricing is not allowed on this forum,see the rules,good idea to edit it out before a moderator has to.

    As far as paying a tech to install it,it still needs to be permited and inspected,unless he can do that,doen't sound like a good idea.Also check warranty ,if purchasing on the internet,it's could be voided,etc.,etc.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by rwbil View Post
    So may question is if ARI does not show obsolete units, then how would one find a documented building permit allowed matching new 13 SEER indoor unit to my older 10 SEER condensor. Or are you saying I should be able to get the 10 SEER coil and that he is not telling the truth when he says he can not get it or it would be a fortune to get one. He even said they would probably have to custom make one.
    A 13 SEER indoor unit in not a certified match with a 10 SEER outdoor unit (indoor coils are not rated by SEER anyway). The older coils are smaller than the new coils. This mis-match is not good for a heat pump.

    To get a permit, it sounds like you need an older coil to match your 5 year-old 10 SEER condenser. A Payne contractor may be able to find one (they don't make those coils anymore - at least I don't think so but I could be wrong).

    Or you could bite the bullet and replace the condenser and indoor coil (or air handler if no furnace is involved) together with an AHRI-certified match. This is your best option for efficiency, longevity, and lower operating costs.

    Good luck.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    37
    Dave,

    To answer you question it will get more complicated and confusing. I was trying to keep the question straight forward. But I will try to explain the whole picture. This is a rental property that I own and I want to keep expenses down. I do not want to replace an outdoor unit that is functioning perfectly. I place a American Home Shield (AHS) warranty on my rentals. AHS only repairs the parts that are broken. They are not going to replace a functioning outdoor unit. They also do not pay for things like building a platform and other misc. expenses. So AHS will only pay for the indoor air handler. So at this point the HVAC contractor wants me to pay for a new outdoor unit in addition to what AHS will pay for the indoor unit.

    Ideally I want just the coil replaced, being that is the part he said was bad.

    What do you do for your customers with a functioning outdoor condersor that is not that old who have an older indoor unit. My outdoor unit is a PAYNE Model number PH10JA030 (2.5 Ton 10 S.E.E.R). Is there a matching unit for that system or do you really have to replace both systems. I understand if I replaced both system it would be easy to show matching system and get a permit.

    The point I was making about buying the system myself instead was that I could buy a matching system and have it installed for just a little more than this company fees are just to do my indoor unit. And they say they must also do the outdoor unit, so the cost really goes through the roof. If I have to really replace the outdoor unit I will just buy it and have it installed. But if I can just get the indoor unit replaced I would go with this company. Remember AHS picks the company not me. Hope this did not confuse my questions.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by dash View Post
    My email is in my profile,send me the complete model of the outdoor unit,and I'll check,or post it here and someone may check.
    Robert:

    I would take Mr Dash up on that offer.

    PH10JA030 is the model# listed in Post #1. Is he missing some numbers?

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