Opinion on recent service/quote

[vanenk]

Hello,

Just a home owner, have enjoyed reading many posts on this site. Would like some professional opinions on work I had done on my unit today.

Here's the scenario: Home purchased in last year w/ 5 ton heat pump (~13 yrs old, b/u electric heat) quit blowing cold air this past Friday. Called home warranty co., they send out a local technician. Tech states low refrigerant, and refills. When asked how many pounds needed to be added, he says, "Quite a few." He says they don't normally leak test on first visit, but it was "real low." When questioned again about quantity of added refrigerant, he says, "Well, we don't really measure in pounds, there's a mathematical formula for figuring up how much we use." At then says, "How much does this unit hold?" He looks at decal on side of unit and says "16 pounds! Wow! I think I probably added 8-9 pounds." I knew how much the unit held from seeing the decal before. He takes out a small "sniffer" and uses it around the coils of the outside unit, and says the whole unit (inside/out) will need to be replaced because it is leaking.

Now, the warranty specifies it's all covered for a fixed fee, no big deal. Here's what I am curious about:

1) Is it difficult to determine how much refrigerant was added? I realize he needed to know capacity first, I just thought he would be able to tell (or would want to keep track for billing the warranty co.) of how much was added.

2) Is using a sniffer device the "best" or "professional" way to assess leakage? Would testing pressure/vacuum be more precise?"

I realize on these warranty jobs, reimbursement might be slim, so they try to keep their expenses to a minimum. My guess is the warranty co. will send another local hvac co. out for a second opinion before agreeing to shell out ~$Removed Pricing. It would be nice to get a new unit for next to nothing, but I just want the proper correction, whether it's repair or replace. This leads me to my final question:

3) What questions do I need to ask if repair is determined the proper route? What if replacement is authorized?

It's not that I don't trust anybody, but I do live by the "Buyer Beware" belief. I've read some really good posts on this site about doing the right thing, and I believe most people live by that rule. I want to make sure I know the right questions to ask. I look forward to hearing from you all.

Thanks!

[bwalley]

1) To know how much refrigerant was added, the tech. should have used a scale, then he would know exactly how much refrigerant was added.

2) It depends on the refrigerant, if it was R22, a sniffer is fine, there are also other methods as well.

3) The Home Warranty company is going to do everything they can to avoid paying to install a new unit, it isn't up to you what route they go, unless you decide to pay for the new unit.

[beenthere]

He should have used a scale. Its the only way to know how much was put in.

Using a sniffer is fine. He probably doesn't know how to use it right.
Using a vacuum, would only tell thet there is a leak, it wouldn't help fined it.

If your unit needs replaced.
Use another company.

[DLR]

A scale is the only way to tell how much refrigerant is used.

Home warranty companies i have delt with will do everything to string you along till the warranty expires. Yours may be different.

[HVAC Pro]

Amazing isn't it? Scales certified by the federal government is required for selling hamburger, but not for refrigerant that sells for 10-20 times the per pound cost.

I use a digital scale anytime refrigerant goes into or is removed from a system.

For the most part, I stopped reading after I saw "home warranty company".

[vanenk]

For starters, I appreciate everyone's input regarding refrigerant measurement. OK, it appears the prevailing opinion regarding home warranty cos is very low. Understandable, I work in the health care industry and I've dealt enough with health insurance cos to know the routine. GENERALLY speaking, are the HVAC service cos that partner with home warranty cos reputable and well trained? Probably few and far in between?

If my unit is truly in need of replacing rather than repair, I may decide to bypass the warranty company and go out of pocket with a company of my own choice, versus one picked for me. My concern is the quality/experience of the installers. Free/low cost today=small fortune tomorrow if it's not done right.

Any other thoughts or comments would be appreciated greatly.

Thanks for your input!

[bwalley]

For starters, I appreciate everyone's input regarding refrigerant measurement. OK, it appears the prevailing opinion regarding home warranty cos is very low. Understandable, I work in the health care industry and I've dealt enough with health insurance cos to know the routine. GENERALLY speaking, are the HVAC service cos that partner with home warranty cos reputable and well trained? Probably few and far in between?

If my unit is truly in need of replacing rather than repair, I may decide to bypass the warranty company and go out of pocket with a company of my own choice, versus one picked for me. My concern is the quality/experience of the installers. Free/low cost today=small fortune tomorrow if it's not done right.

Any other thoughts or comments would be appreciated greatly.

Thanks for your input!

Just because an A/C company is doing work for a home warranty company, does not mean they are not a good contractor.

A home warranty company is an insurance company that pays contractors to repair the equipment they cover and it is the warranty company that tells the contractor what it will pay for and how much they will pay.

Pretty much the same thing as any other insurance company.

Just becaus a Dr. works for an insurance company, does not mean they are a bad dr. does it?.

[2old2rock]

We do home warranty work. Most around here don't. I don't really like the calls, because it's another layer of bs to get things running right. That being said, we treat them just like any other call. And we always use a scale to know how much to charge a customer for refrigerant. How else would he know what to charge? And when we see a large amount needed, we look for a leak untill we find it. And 16 lbs in a 5 unit seems a bit fishy.

[DLR]

Just becaus a Dr. works for an insurance company, does not mean they are a bad dr. does it?.
It don't mean the doctors bad but insurance companies limit what can be done.

[git-r-dun]

Just becaus a Dr. works for an insurance company, does not mean they are a bad dr. does it?.
It don't mean the doctors bad but insurance companies limit what can be done.

That is a correct statement. They do limit what can be done and unfortunately HVAC companies, even the good ones, do have to compromise quality for quantity at times. So it's like a management company on a cheap budget. This is why the perception (and reality in a lot of cases) of "bad" companies come from. I wouldn't necessary call them bad, but maybe inexperienced as the majority companies will have a low payroll in order to compensate for some profit. My opinion and experience with this matter ofcourse.

[vanenk]

Thanks for all the replies. I know the warranty co will be sending another co out for a second opinion, and more than likely they will find a repair solution--which is fine with me, as long as it is a real fix, but I'm realistic enough to know it will probably last until the warranty period expires.

If replacement is the determined remedy, I would rather take the cash settlement and go with a company (and equipment!) of my choosing.

I was not trying to impugn the reputations of cos that do home warranty work, but 2old, nick, and git-r verbalized what my concern was: More reputable HVAC companies will not allow their standards to be compromised by a warranty co., so they don't partner with them. The red tape and reimbursement issues can result in decreased revenue, which requires a lower operating budget, and therefore quality of workforce and materials must be constrained. I'm not complaining, I realize that's the way of the world. I just want to be aware, so I can make the best decision. I would rather spend more and get it done right--It always costs less to do things right the first time.

Again, thanks for the insight, I'll keep everyone posted on the continuing saga...

[bdw293]

The company I work for does work for a Home Warranty company. If it is over 3 lbs we leak check. If less we are told not to. On the first visit. Second visit it gets checked. When I do add 3 or less I check the service valves and schraders on first call. When we replace systems we treat it just like a cash customer. Home warranty just provides the equipment ( they use a carrier product). The problem I see is they try to bully us into using mismatched equipment. Say installing a 13 seer heatpump on 10 seer Airhandler. We refuse to do the work that way. Chances are slim you'll get a new system out of them, but it does happen. If their contractor does replace your unit make sure they pull permits and it gets inspected if applicable in your area.

[fishnfool]

Thanks for all the replies. I know the warranty co will be sending another co out for a second opinion, and more than likely they will find a repair solution--which is fine with me, as long as it is a real fix, but I'm realistic enough to know it will probably last until the warranty period expires.

If replacement is the determined remedy, I would rather take the cash settlement and go with a company (and equipment!) of my choosing.

I was not trying to impugn the reputations of cos that do home warranty work, but 2old, nick, and git-r verbalized what my concern was: More reputable HVAC companies will not allow their standards to be compromised by a warranty co., so they don't partner with them. The red tape and reimbursement issues can result in decreased revenue, which requires a lower operating budget, and therefore quality of workforce and materials must be constrained. I'm not complaining, I realize that's the way of the world. I just want to be aware, so I can make the best decision. I would rather spend more and get it done right--It always costs less to do things right the first time.
Again, thanks for the insight, I'll keep everyone posted on the continuing saga...

I wish all Hvac companies and homeowners understood this! Not saying all that work for these home warranty co. are bad but around here I haven't seen the good ones yet!