90t intellipak eating scrolls for breakfast

[Aircooled81]

I was handed and account we have had for a few years, It has two identical 90 ton trane intellipaks.(sxhgd114) In the last two years, one unit has had no compressor replacements, and 5 of six compressors are original. The second unit has had 6 fail in the last 2 years. The shop says 'well, the equipment is at the 10-11 year mark, they just don't last that long'. I don't buy that being my personal beleif is that compressors 99/100 times can last a long time with proper care.
So... I have noted that the equipment that has had no recent change-outs runs 24/7, as the one with compressor (mechanical or burn-out) failures runs morning to evening, but is off over night and on weekends. The first two ideas that come to mind are lack of crankcase heaters on the scrolls, and possible txv issues. I also want to consider a burn on each circuit that may not have been cleaned out too well. - I haven't tested them yet, but the reason I am here is because I need to put the praposal together to investigate and cure this running issue, but I don't want to put my foot in my mouth.
Initial start-up with saturated oil could cause compressor issues, flood-back, acid running through the circuits, electrical/voltage issues, high-high superheat, some of the basics... Has anyone had a history with catching up to scroll failures on Intellipaks?
Good ideas are appreciated.
The only info I have been able to gather in reguards to the equipment's compressor failure history has been: Each bank of 3 compressors have had replacements; 1 had a bad burn, and took the other two out after a month or two of running; the most common failing compressor has appeared to be 1&2 C (the first stage for both circuits); the next schedule replacement is a compressor that has been dropped from the circuit at the contactor due to suction and discharge pressure too close together (bad valves) which is by the way - a first stage compressor.
The 24/7 box car with no current compressor replacements actually has it's first stage compressor sounding out a rattlie inside like an empty coke can is being stored in there.

[hvac248]

Check the replacement compressors,if they are newer replacements and the suction orifice was not installed (flat washer shipped with replacement) it will cause oil problems
on manifolded comps.

[Randy S.]

We have had to put CCHs on scrolls where the MFG said not to worry. These were Copelands, and none of those with CCHs have failed. They were not parallel, though.

[ispip]

I thought i remember a service bullettin coming out from Trane about all Intellipaks are required to have CCH put on. Also how high is the oil in your oil site glass? when you do your acid test make sure you use the oil sample kit style I have had the refrigerant blow by style come up negitive and then check the oil it come out possitive. Also HVAC248 is correct, I hope that got put in.

[jayguy]

please do not back yourself into a corner by trying to quote a "complete" job. you just got involved in a super mess...only the government (past and present) tries to clean up messes that others have made for a fixed amount.

with that being said...

which compressor model(s) do you have? easiest answer is "red" or "green"...you know what i am talking about!

my guess is the green compressors as i do not believe that trane made a 6 compressor circuit using the red compressors.

that leaves us to the green compressor circuits only...there shouldn't be any orifices that need to be installed unless there is a red compressor there as well.

1. CCH's are a must...install them and check them often.
2. many compressor replacements in a single circuit usually means too much oil. this is my new bandwagon . too much oil causes the txv bulb to become insulated from the refrigerant and so all it does is swing wide open or completely shut. stand around for a long time and get the oil levels down. usually past contractors remove the bad compressor (which may have only 50% of the amount of oil that it is suppossed to have) and then add a full oil charge. measure the temperatures in and out of the oil equalizer lines...this will help you determine if the past contractors have closed it up when changing the compressors. you should get a slight rise in oil temperature as the oil moves from one compressor to another but the line should not be at ambient temperatures...this would mean no oil movement.
3. make sure that nobody has messed with the suction line "tee". this is actually a special tee the helps move the oil to compressor C first. then the oil equalizer line moves the oil to the other compressors as they need it. i have seen contractors replace the tee with a standard tee. because of this tee, the first compressor on the suction line has to be online first "at all times". failure to do this messes with the oil level and movement and can mess up the "downstream" compressors.
4. oil contamination contaminates all 3 compressors. got to have good oil...change it religously if need be...it is easier to change out the oil than the compressors.
5. replace the LL F/D. install a piece of copper in its place and install a replaceable core LL and SL outside of the unit in the condensor section. install isolation valves as well...might as well make it easy on yourself. if somebody comes behind you later...it will be easier for them as well. this will ensure that it actually gets done. the LL F/D inside the unit is easy to miss. and you have to shut the unit down to do anything with it which is why it usually does not get replaced.
6. spend a lot of time standing there. get a comfy chair. you will need to be there a lot but it can be corrected and work very well.

[hvac248]

please do not back yourself into a corner by trying to quote a "complete" job. you just got involved in a super mess...only the government (past and present) tries to clean up messes that others have made for a fixed amount.

with that being said...

which compressor model(s) do you have? easiest answer is "red" or "green"...you know what i am talking about!

my guess is the green compressors as i do not believe that trane made a 6 compressor circuit using the red compressors.

that leaves us to the green compressor circuits only...there shouldn't be any orifices that need to be installed unless there is a red compressor there as well.

1. CCH's are a must...install them and check them often.
2. many compressor replacements in a single circuit usually means too much oil. this is my new bandwagon . too much oil causes the txv bulb to become insulated from the refrigerant and so all it does is swing wide open or completely shut. stand around for a long time and get the oil levels down. usually past contractors remove the bad compressor (which may have only 50% of the amount of oil that it is suppossed to have) and then add a full oil charge. measure the temperatures in and out of the oil equalizer lines...this will help you determine if the past contractors have closed it up when changing the compressors. you should get a slight rise in oil temperature as the oil moves from one compressor to another but the line should not be at ambient temperatures...this would mean no oil movement.
3. make sure that nobody has messed with the suction line "tee". this is actually a special tee the helps move the oil to compressor C first. then the oil equalizer line moves the oil to the other compressors as they need it. i have seen contractors replace the tee with a standard tee. because of this tee, the first compressor on the suction line has to be online first "at all times". failure to do this messes with the oil level and movement and can mess up the "downstream" compressors.
4. oil contamination contaminates all 3 compressors. got to have good oil...change it religously if need be...it is easier to change out the oil than the compressors.
5. replace the LL F/D. install a piece of copper in its place and install a replaceable core LL and SL outside of the unit in the condensor section. install isolation valves as well...might as well make it easy on yourself. if somebody comes behind you later...it will be easier for them as well. this will ensure that it actually gets done. the LL F/D inside the unit is easy to miss. and you have to shut the unit down to do anything with it which is why it usually does not get replaced.
6. spend a lot of time standing there. get a comfy chair. you will need to be there a lot but it can be corrected and work very well.

Detail , details ,details

LOL

[Tech Rob]

please do not back yourself into a corner by trying to quote a "complete" job. you just got involved in a super mess...only the government (past and present) tries to clean up messes that others have made for a fixed amount.

with that being said...

which compressor model(s) do you have? easiest answer is "red" or "green"...you know what i am talking about!

my guess is the green compressors as i do not believe that trane made a 6 compressor circuit using the red compressors.

that leaves us to the green compressor circuits only...there shouldn't be any orifices that need to be installed unless there is a red compressor there as well.

1. CCH's are a must...install them and check them often.
2. many compressor replacements in a single circuit usually means too much oil. this is my new bandwagon . too much oil causes the txv bulb to become insulated from the refrigerant and so all it does is swing wide open or completely shut. stand around for a long time and get the oil levels down. usually past contractors remove the bad compressor (which may have only 50% of the amount of oil that it is suppossed to have) and then add a full oil charge. measure the temperatures in and out of the oil equalizer lines...this will help you determine if the past contractors have closed it up when changing the compressors. you should get a slight rise in oil temperature as the oil moves from one compressor to another but the line should not be at ambient temperatures...this would mean no oil movement.
3. make sure that nobody has messed with the suction line "tee". this is actually a special tee the helps move the oil to compressor C first. then the oil equalizer line moves the oil to the other compressors as they need it. i have seen contractors replace the tee with a standard tee. because of this tee, the first compressor on the suction line has to be online first "at all times". failure to do this messes with the oil level and movement and can mess up the "downstream" compressors.
4. oil contamination contaminates all 3 compressors. got to have good oil...change it religously if need be...it is easier to change out the oil than the compressors.
5. replace the LL F/D. install a piece of copper in its place and install a replaceable core LL and SL outside of the unit in the condensor section. install isolation valves as well...might as well make it easy on yourself. if somebody comes behind you later...it will be easier for them as well. this will ensure that it actually gets done. the LL F/D inside the unit is easy to miss. and you have to shut the unit down to do anything with it which is why it usually does not get replaced.
6. spend a lot of time standing there. get a comfy chair. you will need to be there a lot but it can be corrected and work very well.

I agree on all counts. Especially the driers. I just replaced two factory driers on some 10 year old I-paks with double core shell driers today and installed the associated isolation valves downstream. I'd do this anytime the system is opened, regardless of if it "needs" to be done or not.

Does your condenser section look anything like this?



The lead compressors are going to be a little more rusted, because they'll always have the greatest amount of run time, unless your building has a very stable load and this is a constant volume machine. However, if there is a significant amount of rust around the bottom half of the compressors closest to the evaporator (which would be 1C and 2C if memory serves me correctly) you could have liquid refrigerant flooding back or not boiling off in the off cycle. Because of the way some of these units are piped with the tees in the bottom of the suction header, the first compressor will take most of the damage. Overheating/low charge issues can usually be identified by the top of the scroll being progressively discolored the farther you get away from the evaporator.

Look into all the stuff Jayguy mentioned, though. And like he also stated, quote this generously or do it on a T&M basis. You have no idea what kind of can of worms you may be opening.

[John Culpepper]

Clean oil and crankcase heaters.

[ascj]

please do not back yourself into a corner by trying to quote a "complete" job. you just got involved in a super mess...only the government (past and present) tries to clean up messes that others have made for a fixed amount.

with that being said...

which compressor model(s) do you have? easiest answer is "red" or "green"...you know what i am talking about!

my guess is the green compressors as i do not believe that trane made a 6 compressor circuit using the red compressors.

that leaves us to the green compressor circuits only...there shouldn't be any orifices that need to be installed unless there is a red compressor there as well.

1. CCH's are a must...install them and check them often.
2. many compressor replacements in a single circuit usually means too much oil. this is my new bandwagon . too much oil causes the txv bulb to become insulated from the refrigerant and so all it does is swing wide open or completely shut. stand around for a long time and get the oil levels down. usually past contractors remove the bad compressor (which may have only 50% of the amount of oil that it is suppossed to have) and then add a full oil charge. measure the temperatures in and out of the oil equalizer lines...this will help you determine if the past contractors have closed it up when changing the compressors. you should get a slight rise in oil temperature as the oil moves from one compressor to another but the line should not be at ambient temperatures...this would mean no oil movement.
3. make sure that nobody has messed with the suction line "tee". this is actually a special tee the helps move the oil to compressor C first. then the oil equalizer line moves the oil to the other compressors as they need it. i have seen contractors replace the tee with a standard tee. because of this tee, the first compressor on the suction line has to be online first "at all times". failure to do this messes with the oil level and movement and can mess up the "downstream" compressors.
4. oil contamination contaminates all 3 compressors. got to have good oil...change it religously if need be...it is easier to change out the oil than the compressors.
5. replace the LL F/D. install a piece of copper in its place and install a replaceable core LL and SL outside of the unit in the condensor section. install isolation valves as well...might as well make it easy on yourself. if somebody comes behind you later...it will be easier for them as well. this will ensure that it actually gets done. the LL F/D inside the unit is easy to miss. and you have to shut the unit down to do anything with it which is why it usually does not get replaced.
6. spend a lot of time standing there. get a comfy chair. you will need to be there a lot but it can be corrected and work very well.

I love when people replace the factory drier with the exact same drier. It's amazing they can get away with those factory driers.

I do have quite a few Itellipaks with 6 reds.

I find most most Itellipaks that lose a compressor, then the others follow. Is due to improper replacement. Trane provides very detailed instructions for replacement. Not followed leads to poor oil return, bad/mixed oil, and poor suction return.

[jayguy]

...I do have quite a few Itellipaks with 6 reds...

6 reds would be a first for me...i did not know they made any with that many...thanks!

[obergruppens]

Hi Folks, new here, Experienced Tech I Mass, got a 70 ton Intellpiak, the trouble unit of the bunch with Contactor twofailure, system runs thru test mode and the 115 v coil on contactor is good, and ideas, I got updated manuals, nothing but binarys, any ideas???

please do not back yourself into a corner by trying to quote a "complete" job. you just got involved in a super mess...only the government (past and present) tries to clean up messes that others have made for a fixed amount.

with that being said...

which compressor model(s) do you have? easiest answer is "red" or "green"...you know what i am talking about!

my guess is the green compressors as i do not believe that trane made a 6 compressor circuit using the red compressors.

that leaves us to the green compressor circuits only...there shouldn't be any orifices that need to be installed unless there is a red compressor there as well.

1. CCH's are a must...install them and check them often.
2. many compressor replacements in a single circuit usually means too much oil. this is my new bandwagon . too much oil causes the txv bulb to become insulated from the refrigerant and so all it does is swing wide open or completely shut. stand around for a long time and get the oil levels down. usually past contractors remove the bad compressor (which may have only 50% of the amount of oil that it is suppossed to have) and then add a full oil charge. measure the temperatures in and out of the oil equalizer lines...this will help you determine if the past contractors have closed it up when changing the compressors. you should get a slight rise in oil temperature as the oil moves from one compressor to another but the line should not be at ambient temperatures...this would mean no oil movement.
3. make sure that nobody has messed with the suction line "tee". this is actually a special tee the helps move the oil to compressor C first. then the oil equalizer line moves the oil to the other compressors as they need it. i have seen contractors replace the tee with a standard tee. because of this tee, the first compressor on the suction line has to be online first "at all times". failure to do this messes with the oil level and movement and can mess up the "downstream" compressors.
4. oil contamination contaminates all 3 compressors. got to have good oil...change it religously if need be...it is easier to change out the oil than the compressors.
5. replace the LL F/D. install a piece of copper in its place and install a replaceable core LL and SL outside of the unit in the condensor section. install isolation valves as well...might as well make it easy on yourself. if somebody comes behind you later...it will be easier for them as well. this will ensure that it actually gets done. the LL F/D inside the unit is easy to miss. and you have to shut the unit down to do anything with it which is why it usually does not get replaced.
6. spend a lot of time standing there. get a comfy chair. you will need to be there a lot but it can be corrected and work very well.

[chillerout1]

i would get that suction drier out of there first, then I would remove the liquid line drier and put in a replaceable core drier with valves on both sides, and change the oil in all compressors and acid test.

[Aircooled81]

Shoot me your email address, and the model you have, i'll mail you the iom. Can't disiffer your problem from your thread... ne more details?

[jpsmith1cm]

moved to tech to tech commercial

[heatingman]

Jayguy,

You hit it on the head with too much oil. The first comp was a bad burnout, likely from low charge or dirty condensors or some other perfectly avoidable reason for excessive compression ratio. Then there was no system clean up of anykind or not nearly enough, so that wiped out the other two, and now there is 100% more oil then there should be in the circuit, and with so much oil a lack of CCH, you've got a major recipe for disaster.

I would either T and M this job till its right, or I would run like hell.

On jobs like this, after I remove the compressor, I cut it open to see what actually happened (unless its a warranty, then I request a cause of failure report)

Cause the reality is when compressor replacements are piss poorly done, then so is everything else.

[Aircooled81]

Comp Contactor Fail -
Circuit 2
Problem: The Compressor
Contactor for Circuit. #2 has
malfunctioned.
The circuit #2 compressor
proving input is detected
closed continuously for more
than 3 seconds while neither
compressor output on circuit
#2 is closed.
A "Lockout circuit #2 request
is issued to the Compressor
Staging Control function.
PMR) A manual reset is
required after the diagnostic is
set. It can be reset by the HI
or Tracer, or by cycling power
to the RTM.