Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 14 to 18 of 18
  1. #14
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio
    Posts
    2,176
    I stand corrected.

    Tons of information from the EPA regarding this topic, but no regulations.

    Sorry for the mis-information.

  2. #15
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Jacksonville, Fl
    Posts
    219
    The Perfect Air Purifier produces only around
    5ppb (parts per billion) ozone. The EPA recommends no
    more than 50ppb for a healthy living space. In most cases, the
    ozone output will be below the detectable levels of most individuals.
    The output varies according to airflow, humidity,
    ambient ozone levels and the duct system.

    Filtration depends on your budget and your health issues.

    If your concern is to just capture, you may like the lennox MERV 16 < Highest MERV rating. Any MERV 16 filter will put a restriction on the system it is critical to maintain. Time will tell on the effectiveness of the Lennox MERV 16.

    If you want to kill what you capture the Perfect Air Purifier by Bryant or Carrier is the only system that has been proven and tested in killing what it captures. It was originally created for the government to protect against anthrax and small pox and other harmful viruses and bacteria.

    The filter is 11 MERV with the ionized particles it becomes a MERV 15
    This means the filter itself has less restriction on the system.

    Today I changed the filter on the Perfect Air Purifier for a customer.
    This customer was taking allergy shots before this was installed.
    She is no longer is taking the Allergy shots. She has been Allergy Shot free for over a year.


    Flex Filters are around 10 MERV.
    Cartridge Filtration is around 8 MERV

    So it depends on your budget and your severity of allergies and if you have sever asthma which you should choose.

    My recommendation would be the Bryant Perfect Air Purifier.

  3. #16
    cd
    A pretty good summary. I can't disagree too much, but as you might have guessed I do have some comments.

    1. The HC16 and the Carrier Infinity or the Bryant Perfect Air have about the same pressure drop. I have tested both at the same air speeds a number of times and have come up with the same results.

    2. I really like the idea of using an efficient media and charging the particles before the filter. This gives you the best of both worlds. Higher efficiency with lower resistance.

    3. The Carrier I and the Bryant PA produce less ozone than an EAC or the Trane CE. However, the 5ppb is questionable. It all depends on where the measurement is taken. Is this for the occupied space or for the output at the unit. My measurements at the unit showed anywhere between 10 ppb and 30 ppb. Although one time I had 50 ppb. Never did figure out why.

    4. I have seen these claims of kill what you capture. So what? There is no evidence this makes a difference. What you capture is what you capture. My opinion is this is useless marketing hype.

    5. The reference to being developed by the government for the capture of anthrax and smallpox is completely untrue. I have followed the development of this product for years before it was "introduced" by Carrier. I think you need to provide references for this statement not related to the marketing literature. I believe you will find that it was developed by private industry. Maybe the companies involved have tried to sell it to the government.

    6. Do not connect the purchase of an air cleaner to the severity of allergies. There is no evidence that air cleaners alone will have an effect on allergies. Your anecdote is not evidence.

    Finally, your conclusion connecting the choice of an air cleaner to the severity of allergies and asthma and to the budget of the consumer is unfounded and potentially dangerous.

  4. #17
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Jacksonville, Fl
    Posts
    219
    [QUOTE=breathe easy;3853442]cd
    A pretty good summary. I can't disagree too much, but as you might have guessed I do have some comments.

    1. The HC16 and the Carrier Infinity or the Bryant Perfect Air have about the same pressure drop. I have tested both at the same air speeds a number of times and have come up with the same results.

    What instruments have do you test with? I'm curious how can you test at the same air speed, unless you are at a lab. You maybe.
    Other factors are coil sizes, duct sizing ect. The thing I do know is the Higher the MERV the more restriction. Restriction of Air flow caused by High MERV filters can cause problems if the system was not design specifically for the filter, the severity of this I do not know. Time will tell and I hope it's all good


    2. I really like the idea of using an efficient media and charging the particles before the filter. This gives you the best of both worlds. Higher efficiency with lower resistance.

    Yes in my opinion this also is a key, but as we discussed the only way you can accomplish this is by using small amounts of ozone.

    3. The Carrier I and the Bryant PA produce less ozone than an EAC or the Trane CE. However, the 5ppb is questionable. It all depends on where the measurement is taken. Is this for the occupied space or for the output at the unit. My measurements at the unit showed anywhere between 10 ppb and 30 ppb. Although one time I had 50 ppb. Never did figure out why.

    I got the 5ppb from lab literature. I would be interested in your study.

    4. I have seen these claims of kill what you capture. So what? There is no evidence this makes a difference. What you capture is what you capture. My opinion is this is useless marketing hype.

    In my opinion this is not a marketing hype. In order to stop the spread of virus or bacteria you need to kill it. I've worked in the past managing the HVAC in infection control area at a hospital. You want to kill those little varmints. These purifiers were even tested last year with the common cold which is great for the residential concern and market. Another point is the last thing you want is an infested filter blowing in the air as you take out the filter. I can go into more detail on how we had to dress just to remove the filters in the infection controlled area but you get the idea.

    5. The reference to being developed by the government for the capture of anthrax and smallpox is completely untrue. I have followed the development of this product for years before it was "introduced" by Carrier. I think you need to provide references for this statement not related to the marketing literature. I believe you will find that it was developed by private industry. Maybe the companies involved have tried to sell it to the government.

    Yes this was developed by a private industry. I'll get the name of the company) This company sold their technology to the government and also was asked by United Technoligies to develop the same concept for Residential Homes.
    When they did develop the technology, United Technoligies bought the rights to it. Seplico is the name of the company for the capture and kill technology.


    6. Do not connect the purchase of an air cleaner to the severity of allergies. There is no evidence that air cleaners alone will have an effect on allergies. Your anecdote is not evidence.

    I Didn't say my anecdote was evidence. I reference a real person who told me her situation. It may have nothing to do with the purifier. But in the summer time when the air conditioning runs more she feels better. I don't know, I'm still wanting more real world research myself but this customer told me her story just the day I read this post.

    Finally, your conclusion connecting the choice of an air cleaner to the severity of allergies and asthma and to the budget of the consumer is unfounded and potentially dangerous.

    My post was my opinion, That was Bryant Perfect Air Purifier or the Carrier Infinity Purifier would be my first choice in most circumstances.
    My opinion is based on the Kill factor, I believe in that, as I mentioned before It's not marketing with my opinion because I was right next to stuff for 7 years that could kill you as I mentioned above.

    For someone who has sever asthma the word ozone of any sorts starts the mind to go. For those people I say get the best filter that will work with your condition and your system even if it's a pleated filter or a filtrete Allergy filter.

    Cost does play into choice not everyone can afford Bryant or Carriers purifier or a hospital Hepa filter.

    Not everyone has the same allergies and concerns.

    Flex filters are good, Cartridge Filters also.

    The best filters are always the filter you change.

    The only filters I do not recommend is filters you have to wash.
    Last edited by ClassicDave; 07-11-2009 at 02:36 PM. Reason: Seplico is the name of the development company

  5. #18
    cd
    I appreciate your thoughtful and well reasoned response. I apologize for going a bit "overboard" on my post. I read the last point in your initial post and interpreted it to mean that the more severe asthma one has the more money they would need to budget for an air cleaner. Which is not true.

    As I understand now your point was that there are many factors to consider in choosing an air cleaner like budget, ozone production, pressure drop, allergies, asthma and so forth. I totally agree with this assessment.

    We have a test duct. It is made from galvanized steel. It is 8 feet long and has a 24 inch by 24 inch opening. Our fan capacity enables us to provide up to 1,000 fpm. We have a Magnahelic installed to measure pressure drop of filters or air cleaners. We also have a particle counter that measures particles 0.3 microns and above per cubic foot. In addition, we have an ozone meter that measures ozone levels in increments of 10 ppb. We have run the tests at 500fpm.

    While it is true that if you have the same type of filter media and the same filter configuration (depth and number of pleats), a higher MERV will produce a higher pressure drop. It is not true that a higher MERV always means higher pressure drop. Filters with more surface area have lower pressure drops. In addition different filter media have different resistances. In our tests the Lennox HC16 and the Carrier I had about the same pressure drop.

    My ozone measurements were taken at the end of the test duct. As I reviewed my notes I realized that I made a mistake in my prior post. The highest reading we had was 40ppb not 50ppb. I question how the lab came up with results of 5ppb. I would like to have more details. In other research I have done on other ozone producing products there always seemed to be some "catch" as to how the measurements were taken.

    The are two reasons why I think this "capture and kill" statement is not relevant to choosing a residential air cleaner. The first has to do with air movement. Since you have worked in a hospital environment you probably know that Isolation Rooms require HEPA filtration with at least 12ACH. The average household system has an ACH of about 1.5 - maybe 4ACH. The chances of the viruses and bacteria making it to the filter are pretty slim. To state that the air cleaner captures and kills these pathogens gives the incorrect impression that the air cleaner could prevent the spread of disease in a household. The reality is that people would be far better off washing their hands and being cautious within three feet of someone who could be contagious. In other words, a bottle of soap is alot cheaper and more effective than an air cleaner.

    Secondly, unlike filters used in hospitals the average residential filter will not contain a large amount of active pathogens. There is just not good evidence that you will re-entrain bacteria or viruses back into a house by removing the filter. Although that does point out the importance of always turning off the HVAC system when you are changing filters.

    But as you state, this is your opinion and I really cannot argue with that.

    Otherwise I think you have provided a good summary. I suspect we are not as far off in our thoughts as I originally stated.

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Comfortech Show Promo Image

Related Forums

Plumbing Talks | Contractor Magazine
Forums | Electrical Construction & Maintenance (EC&M) Magazine
Comfortech365 Virtual Event