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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
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    SW Wisconsin
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    4,857

    Own a Home or Rent, this Cap & Trade Bill may affect you

    HVAC Contractors (get in line to be a govt approved energy auditor), Home Owners & Renters, Get ready for the coming Energy Conservation Audits.

    The Cap & Trade (Section 304) program requires that states label their buildings so that we can all know how efficient every building (that includes residential and non-residential buildings) is and it requires that the information be made public. To that end, the bill suggests a number of circumstances under which the states could inspect a building, including:

    (A) preparation, and public disclosure of the label through filing with tax and title records at the time of--

    (i) a building audit conducted with support from Federal or State funds;

    (ii) a building energy-efficiency retrofit conducted in response to such an audit;

    (iii) a final inspection of major renovations or additions made to a building in accordance with a building permit issued by a local government entity;

    (iv) a sale that is recorded for title and tax purposes consistent with paragraph (8);

    (v) a new lien recorded on the property for more than a set percentage of the assessed value of the property, if that lien reflects public financial assistance for energy-related improvements to that building; or

    (vi) a change in ownership or operation of the building for purposes of utility billing; or

    (B) other appropriate means.

    Pay close attention to (iii), (iv), and (vi) because those hit you right where you live. What that's saying is the state will be empowered to inspect your home if you want to 1) renovate your house in any way that requires a building permit, 2) sell your house, or 3) change the name of the person responsible for any utility bill.

    I will let the rest of you research the rest of the Bill. - Darrell

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
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    I don't know
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    There's no point of having mandatory energy audits when the majority of owners don't (or can't afford) to pay for the improvements.
    General public's attitude towards our energy predicament: "I reject the reality of finite resource depletion and substitute it with my own; energy is infinite, we just need an alternative storage medium to run the cars on. The economy can grow indefinitely - we just need to "green" everything! Technology is energy! Peak what?"

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Mechanicsburg, PA
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    310
    It does not matter to the current administration if you can afford it or not. They will just pass another stimulus bill. Has the first one helped you yet?

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Sterling Heights, MI
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    60
    They can look at my home all they want but they will still find that I do not have any money to make even small improvements at this point and time. I have done what ever I can in the for now but have a total lack of cash now. Are they going to pay for the audit or is it just a way to soak us out of more money? Sounds like more people will just do stuff without a permit and risk it now if they are just trying to take people for more money or (Force) changes on those who can't afford this stuff. Now if they are going to pay for the audit and the repairs then sure I have no issues with it. But I don't see that being the case.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
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    Sterling Heights, MI
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    60
    Quote Originally Posted by rbeck View Post
    It does not matter to the current administration if you can afford it or not. They will just pass another stimulus bill. Has the first one helped you yet?
    Yes it did help me a lot. This was my first house and I used the money to install the correct size HVAC system plus fix all kinds of other issues with the house and cut my bills in half VS the old owner.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Northwest Arkansas via Chicago Area via Straight Up from There on Lake Superior
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phasewolf View Post
    They can look at my home all they want but they will still find that I do not have any money to make even small improvements at this point and time. I have done what ever I can ...
    Why are they concentrating on only the big expensive things? Just about everybody can afford a few cans of foam or tubes of caulk, a few CFL lights - they have a great payback. Then hen you have some cash you can spread a few more inches of insulation in the attic. That isn't too expensive. The point - we should getting the much cheaper low hanging fruit before we start pushing the $$$$ systems, unless you absolutely need one of course. When you upgrade get the good stuff. When you are looking for efficiency do the easy, stuff first.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Cedar Grove, Wi-Sheboygan
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    1,582
    If the Cap & Tax bill is passed in the Senate theres going to be alot of reprucussions to every home owner across the country weather you like it or not. When the time comes that your looking to sell your existing home or thinking about buying an existing home or maybe building a new home it's going to cost both the buyer and seller dearly and as for everyone else that pays for utilities such as NG, Propane,electric, you can expect your rates to jump by a minimum of several hundred dollars and probably closer to well over a $1,000/yr !!!!

    As I have been telling everyone I know and do not know but may talk to in general I tell everyone to vote all incumbants come 2010 election regardless if there doing there job or not just vote every one of them out regardless if there Democratic or Republican consider them gone. This is the only way to clear the Congress of all the old bastards and start with a clean slate with a Congress full of Junior Senators who will not have senority over no one !!!!

    People you have to wake up and smell the roses, if Congress passes this Cap & Tax and Health Care Reforum it will be the biggest Power grab by our Gov't then any other time in our history, and it's only going to cost you more of your freedom and cost you more to live and breathe. GO to the Congressional website and read this mamouth bill HR-2454 nearly 1300 pages and no one has taken the time to even read it but they sure knew how to vote yes for something they have no glue as to what the hell is in the bill !!! When was the last time you recall Congress passing a 1,000 page bill or anything remotely close to that size and no one read it prior to voting on it ? It's never happened before in our history but it's time to wake the hell up before you find yourself living in a place that could look like Iran, North Korea, or worse !!!! Vote'em all out in 2010 !!!

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
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    Sterling Heights, MI
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    60
    I installed CFL's in fact that is all I have in the house did it before I even moved in. There is 28" of insulation and I am hoping to eather replace the windows or caulk them soon. The ducts are all being resealed by me with mastic when I get the time sense they are in the basement and easy to get too. The house has brick outside not sure what else I can do to make things better.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    SW Wisconsin
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    I get real tired of watching folks do house flips & home staging, spending big money & doing nothing toward weatherization & HVAC upgrading.

    The bill may not pass without major amendments, but hopefully it will change the focus toward HVAC improvements.

    There are a lot of bank home repo's that will need energy conservation retro work.

    A lot more folks have the money to reduce home energy use then one would think, but many will need access to extremely low interest loans.

    The economy & jobs situation is very serious, but other options to a stimulus may sound good until you think them through, they won't do enough to get things going again.

    It's a slippery slope back to a sound even keel sustainable plateau economy, & the odds are not good, no matter which policies are chosen.

    We need to get things profitable for farmers, business operators & work to increase the purchasing power (demand-side) wages for employees.

    The short-term supply-side stimulus has to be perfectly targeted to achieve multiple complementery objectives. It needs to immediately translate into action projects that create jobs, so far it hasn't accomplished that goal.

    The best hope for jobs & reducing energy use is, energy conservation & a renewable energy industry. That will also include geothermal heat pumps, etc.

    It was the big boys at the financial sector with their mortgage schemes, etc., that brought down the global economy. Now all of us will have to sacrifice big-time to achieve a recovery. P.S.: DanW13, you & others here run, & I'll promote all of you. But where are you all going to get that kind of money? - Darrell
    Last edited by udarrell; 07-08-2009 at 08:34 PM. Reason: Post Script - DanW03

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by udarrell View Post
    ...

    The best hope for jobs & reducing energy use is, energy conservation & a renewable energy industry. That will also include geothermal heat pumps, etc.
    ...
    Darrell, totally agree with your energy reduction and energy conservation ideas. But I was really, really hot to put in a geothermal retrofit. Got all caught up in that "green" mentality, probably more like big cost savings hopes. Finally looked at our modest energy costs. Even though we have a big house, it is very efficient. Economically, the cost after all rebates and tax credits would be about 3 times an excellent dual fuel system which provides some hedge against electric versus NG costs. Wouldn't have recovered it in my lifetime.

    That, and the more I learned, the more concerns I had with a much more complex install, major components depending on digging holes properly and strong pumps. Maybe if I was building a new house. Maybe. But first I would look at the best house envelope and internal HVAC infrastructure I could get at what cost.

    I mentioned in another thread a 2900 sqft, all-electric, model house with around $40/month HVAC costs. We need to consider those relatively modest but $$$$ costs based on envelope and insulation technologies against a still very expensive geo solution. It's likely a fraction of the $$$$$ geo costs.

    My point is that one must address the cheaper high payback solutions before you go to the expensive and as yet non-standard solutions - meaning be very, very careful who does it. Besides, I am queasy about approaches that have the Feds financing these expensive solutions through heavy tax credits. That's our money they're giving out! Some tax credits are good to overcome the inertia of money-conscious HO's, but others are just wishful thinking. That sentiment goes big time when it comes to heavily subsidized, costly, potentially life-style compromising residential solar/wind solutions currently available.

  11. #11
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    Jan 2009
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    Keokuk, IA
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    Quote Originally Posted by jerryd_2008 View Post
    Darrell, totally agree with your energy reduction and energy conservation ideas. But I was really, really hot to put in a geothermal retrofit. Got all caught up in that "green" mentality. .
    And if you really stop and look at where each energy soure comes from, unless you haev a wind turbine or solar panels one your property, a 95% furnace is just that 95% efficient. With electrical power from the grid, you're looking at about 50% effciency at best (possibly lower) from the coal fired boiler to the transmission losses. It may cost less, but you're actually consuming more natural resources.


    We'll see how all this pans out. I guess when you go from one extreme politacally towards the other, you end up going from a wide open free market, to a overly restricted overregulated mess. We can spend the next 50 years undoing the regulation so some greedy fat cats can swoop in again and get even richer.



    I predict within 30 years the whole system collapses, the governemnt goes bankrupt, we fallin into near anarchy similar to the French revolution, reallocate all the wealth and start over again.

    I could be right. I thought around 2004 that there was no way the housing [rices in most areas were sustainable and that lending was out of control.

  12. #12
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    No idea before its time

    Quote Originally Posted by motoguy128 View Post
    And if you really stop and look at where each energy soure comes from, unless you haev a wind turbine or solar panels one your property, a 95% furnace is just that 95% efficient. With electrical power from the grid, you're looking at about 50% effciency at best (possibly lower) from the coal fired boiler to the transmission losses. It may cost less, but you're actually consuming more natural resources. ...
    Motoguy, you have told us elsewhere about your home and engineering background. Hope that you might use those experiences to reach the point of understanding that all ideas, no matter how ingenious, are judged by cost-effectiveness in the real world. Engineers, not one but worked in several heavy engineering areas, can't make something unless it sells at a price that customers (not government for them) will buy. The numbers guys make sure of that. Also, bad cost ideas in the past can become fantastic products once the necessary breakthroughs in design, materials, process, etc. finally are accomplished. Not before and not until. No idea before its time. Alternative HVAC solutions aren't quite there yet, certainly not solar and wind and geo needs a bit more work IMHO. Have patience but don't give up on them. I won't.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
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    Cedar Grove, Wi-Sheboygan
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    The real problem we have in this world is that everyone is so dam money hungry and always wanting to make there fortunes as fast as possibly and then run for the hills leaving a product that may or may not survive 1yr or 10yrs, but the real problem we face is the Extreme Environmentalism who put fish and turtles above a humans life, Just look at Kalifornia where they turned the water off to a city who depends on water for there farms and now over 80,000 jobs are to be lost for a Minnow !!! Then you have to fight this same crowd of people to gain the ability to string transmission lines across certain sections of land in fear of violating some animals habitat along the way, it's just ridiculous is what it is.

    Regardless if we developed Wind, Solar we still need to have fossil fuels as back up no matter what anyone says, the wind doesn't blow 24/7, and the sun doesn't shine 24/7 so there only good for certain situation. Take a look at France, they get over 80% of there power from Nuclear power it's the cleanest power available, but here again we have those nutty Environmentalist to deal with !!!! We have huge reserves of NG,and have the technology for clean coal of which the POTUS campaigned on but did a 180 on that idea because of Mr. Soro's !!!!

    Besides all of that Mr. T Boone Pickens who decide during the Presidential Campaign to buy up some 700 wind turbines to hopefully make alot of money on the deal, well he's now wanting to sell out of the idea and switchhis ideas all over to NG exploration in hopes of gaining some huge profits there, will have to keep an eye on that situation.

    Now when you compare wind energy, solar energy to that of fossil fuels the foot print between them are astronomical. To build the equivalent wind farm to match the energy output of a Nuclear plant is something like 10,000 acres of land for wind to about 5 acres for Nuclear and approximately the same for solar though it maybe more land for solar, but again you have years of law suit, red tape just to get aprroval to build anyone of the 3, and then several more years thereafter to get oanyone of them online and running.

    Now we have oodles of NG, and Oil in fact we have just as much Oil as does the Middle East but are fellow Americans in Washington refuse to let us Drill Baby Drill because they want to force the Greene engery on us that is yet to be proven and until the Sun and Wind shines and blows 24/7 we can't build enough Wind and solar to power everything let alone half the countries needs. So whose kidding who here, it's big Gov't against us the peons who have bigger Peons in Congress who represent us and feel that following the money to line there pockets is much more important than you and I ever are or will be.

    Vote'em all out come 2010 !!!!! all Incumbants out in 2010 !!!!! Lets start with a clean slate in Washington and repair the damage that has been done before it's too late, We Can Do it we just need to vote'em out is all it takes.

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