Who Provides Tax Credit Certificate?

[jerryd_2008]

Have read all the IRS stuff (IRS Notice 2009-53) on the manufacturer "may" issue a tax credit certificate to the home owner who "may" use it as a tax record (guess than means if he gets audited). Have seen the manufacturer certifications on various web sites. Also am quite familiar with the AHRI certification directory.

Here's my problem. My distributor recommended an AHRI HP/3rd party coil/furnace that definitely passed the AHRI certification - coil happens to be 1-ton larger than the HP. This AHRI certification is not on the manufacturer's web site as one of their certified systems - not their coil I guess. Assumed that this would be rectified and accepted the proposal with a clause that requires the contractor to provide the certification before he even starts the install to protect my tax credit which was part of my economic decision. When I called the distributor (nice guy) to ask where my equipment is (another issue) he seemed quite surprised when I asked when I would get the manufacturer's certificate. Initially he thought that the 3rd party coil maker would provide the certification. When I described the manufacturer certification he didn't seem that familiar with it and even talked off-line to his sales manager. I even sent him references to the IRS notice and pointed out the name of the manufacturer's representative who signed their web site certificates.

This situation has got to be quite frequent. Am I going to get that manufacturer's certification?

Oh, he also warned me that I better get a copy of my AHRI certification because he has a letter that states that AHRI is going to restate their certifications by July 15, I believe, that reflects a new testing method. Huh!!!!! Where does that leave HO's that bought a system based on an AHRI certificate that has changed?

[beenthere]

The third party coil manufacturer has to provide the certificate.

They are the ones that say it meets that rating.

Unit manufacturers don't rate their equipment with third party coils.

[jerryd_2008]

The third party coil manufacturer has to provide the certificate.

They are the ones that say it meets that rating.

...

Thanks for the input BT. But I thought that it was AHRI that does the rating.

Can somebody explain to HO's just how the AHRI rating process works? Do manufacturer's have to ship their equipment to AHRI like Underwriter's Lab approval works? Do the manufacturer's do their own testing? If so, are they audited by AHRI or have to have their test facilities certified by AHRI? Hmmm. Does that imply that I must trust some company that makes this equipment in China or Mexico or some other low-cost place is going to tell me the truth about the rating? Is this a "just trust me" situation?

[beenthere]

ARHI, doesn't rate them.
The manufacture does.

Periodically, AHRI will do a test to double check a rating. But, they don't test them to give them a rating.

Third party coil manufacturers, just use a computer program. They don't really test any unit. They are allowed to be off by 10% as I recall.

[jerryd_2008]

ARHI, doesn't rate them.
The manufacture does.

Periodically, AHRI will do a test to double check a rating. But, they don't test them to give them a rating.

Third party coil manufacturers, just use a computer program. They don't really test any unit. They are allowed to be off by 10% as I recall.

Don't mean to be a pest, but how does the 3rd party coil manufacturer get its coil combined with a manufacturer's HP and furnace, say, and get a rating of the combo which is required for an AHRI certification? Seems to me modeling a manufacturer's proprietary HP and furnace would not be easy due to limited, proprietary information on the manufacturer's specs. No? Where do they get all of the date needed to model this complex combo?

[beenthere]

Don't know all the ins and outs of it.

But, probably from the manufacturers, of what the outdoor units specs are. As far as the compressors mass flow volume, etc.

[DGIO-Not]

Actually, the DOE's website will explain the certification very well. Most manufacturer's (third party as well) take well known numbers, tested numbers and ask for a Computer Simulation. It is a very complicated program running some really complex alogorithms, but should read how they go about deciding how the program is run for certain things (like ESP motors.) It is pretty interesting and the discussion while not public, does have alot of great insight.

It is how most 3rd parties certify and why they do spend alot of time and money to certify.

I know you probably do not want to share Manufacturer, but I am hearing how some are just struggling to keep up with the certifications so hang in there.

Shoot, even the IRS is still publishing clarifications and trying to get up to speed so do not be surprised if come December, AHRI is going to be the certificate of choice.

[jerryd_2008]

Actually, the DOE's website will explain the certification very well. Most manufacturer's (third party as well) take well known numbers, tested numbers and ask for a Computer Simulation. It is a very complicated program running some really complex alogorithms, but should read how they go about deciding how the program is run for certain things (like ESP motors.) It is pretty interesting and the discussion while not public, does have alot of great insight. ...

I know you probably do not want to share Manufacturer, but I am hearing how some are just struggling to keep up with the certifications so hang in there.

DGIO, thank you for your insights. Do you by chance have an Internet link to that DOE reference?

... It is how most 3rd parties certify and why they do spend alot of time and money to certify. ... I am hearing how some are just struggling to keep up with the certifications so hang in there.

From the volume of AHRI certifications for all of those combinations of AC/HP/coil/furnace/air handler, I can imagine that there is quite a cost and backlog. From the lack of proposals from some brands, I am guessing that somebody didn't see this coming and the brand is paying big time for lack of certification, in my experience especially on larger capacity systems.

Shoot, even the IRS is still publishing clarifications and trying to get up to speed so do not be surprised if come December, AHRI is going to be the certificate of choice.

Gosh, wouldn't that make life a lot easier for everybody? After all why have a certification organization if you can't refer to their certification after testing and/or simulation.

DGIO, see that you have been engineer, IT, HVAC guy. I spent many years in IT and design labs. Also did complex real-time systems. I am a bit familiar with simulations, at least enough to appreciate that getting accurate and fast simulations for all of these combos is one huge, complex undertaking.

[jerryd_2008]

The third party coil manufacturer has to provide the certificate.

They are the ones that say it meets that rating.

Unit manufacturers don't rate their equipment with third party coils.

Using a York HP/furnace and an Aspen 3rd party coil and talking to both parties, the 3rd party coil manufacturer has agreed that they do indeed provide the tax credit certification for the entire combination. There is an Aspen web page with an entry specifically to request this certification.

Hope this helps.

PS: Both York and Aspen warned that the AHRI certifications may change on July 15, 2009 as AHRI revises their test procedures, I believe. Both strongly recommended that any body that could be affected get their certification document before that time.