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  1. #27
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Louisville, KY
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    12,189
    Quote Originally Posted by CerealKiller View Post
    Most definitely needs to be on a horizontal run.

    As far as the placement, I've always been of the 4 and 8 o'clock school. If the manufacturer recommends 10 and 2 o'clock, well......that is where it goes.
    No it doesn't.

    The "o'clock" is when you are using a horizontal run. That doesn't mean that it always has to be on a horizontal surface.

    I have found better superheat control on many applications by moving the bulb to a vertical riser.
    Perhaps you should have read the instructions before calling.

  2. #28
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Norfolk, VA
    Posts
    85
    Quote Originally Posted by jrbenny View Post
    No it doesn't.

    The "o'clock" is when you are using a horizontal run. That doesn't mean that it always has to be on a horizontal surface.

    I have found better superheat control on many applications by moving the bulb to a vertical riser.
    Ideally, manufacturers recommend you install the bulb on a horizontal surface. In this case, the piping should have been plumbed to allow that. Yes, you can install the bulb on a vertical (technically, not the case here) as long as the tail end of the bulb is up. Hard to tell, but I'd guess they didn't do that either.

  3. #29
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Louisville, KY
    Posts
    12,189
    Another myth... tail up.
    Perhaps you should have read the instructions before calling.

  4. #30
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Norfolk, VA
    Posts
    85
    Quote Originally Posted by jrbenny View Post
    Another myth... tail up.
    Well, if it is a myth.......why do manufacturers put in in their install manuals then?

  5. #31
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Louisville, KY
    Posts
    12,189
    Because they simply replicate the same mistake. In the past, there was some specific application with a specific charge in the bulb that required the tail to be up. However, that is not the case for resi/comm applications that you and I see daily.

    Just like how OEM keep telling people the wrong sequence of events for a time/temperature defrost control. The misinformation is repeated.

    Click here. Take a look at the installation manual for a TEV on Sporlan's website. Plenty of discussion regarding bulb location. No discussion on the tail.

    I love this line...

    Certain conditions peculiar to a particular system may require a different bulb location than normally recommended. In these cases the proper bulb location may be determined by trial.
    Just shows that there's not a blanket answer for 'proper location' of the bulb.

    As I state earlier, I have found much better superheat control on a riser (with no trap of course).
    Perhaps you should have read the instructions before calling.

  6. #32
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Calgary, AB, Canada
    Posts
    102
    Quote Originally Posted by john_ertw View Post
    That is correct. Does the unit microns refer to microns of mercury or microns of water or something else? I was asking to determine if he evacuated the system to the manufacturer's recommended amount of vacuum.
    1 micron = 1/25,400 of an inch. The last -29 hg to -30 hg is in the micron range.

    As kajer stated correctly, his vacuum could be WAY off the required 400-500 micron needed for 410A systems. Also, without a micron gauge there is no way of knowing if a microscopic leak or lingering moisture is present. Proper evacuation practices state that the tech should pull a deep vacuum, turn off the blank-off valve on the vacuum and wait to see what the micron gauge does. If after 5 minutes it holds at 400-500 microns you have a true evacuation. If there is a slow rise to around 1500 microns you most likely have moisture present in the lines. Moisture + refrigerant oil = bad. A rapid rise to ATM usually means a leak. Maybe a very tiny one you wouldn't stick around long enough with a typical gauge set to notice. Or care to notice. Alot of hacks pull to "around" -30 hg and crack the kings and walk away until the next recharge

  7. #33
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    147
    Quote Originally Posted by BlizzardDude View Post
    As kajer stated correctly, his vacuum could be WAY off the required 400-500 micron needed for 410A systems. Also, without a micron gauge there is no way of knowing if a microscopic leak or lingering moisture is present. Proper evacuation practices state that the tech should pull a deep vacuum, turn off the blank-off valve on the vacuum and wait to see what the micron gauge does. If after 5 minutes it holds at 400-500 microns you have a true evacuation. If there is a slow rise to around 1500 microns you most likely have moisture present in the lines. Moisture + refrigerant oil = bad. A rapid rise to ATM usually means a leak. Maybe a very tiny one you wouldn't stick around long enough with a typical gauge set to notice. Or care to notice. Alot of hacks pull to "around" -30 hg and crack the kings and walk away until the next recharge
    Is there any way to capture the existing refrigerant, redo the vacuum to the proper 400-500 micron level, and put the refrigerant back or has the damage already been done and (moisture has already been introduced into the system)? Is the only fix to use new 410a?

    This seems like an issue I should take up with the company when I call this week.

  8. #34
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Western PA
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    25,718
    Quote Originally Posted by john_ertw View Post
    Is there any way to capture the existing refrigerant, redo the vacuum to the proper 400-500 micron level, and put the refrigerant back or has the damage already been done and (moisture has already been introduced into the system)? Is the only fix to use new 410a?

    This seems like an issue I should take up with the company when I call this week.
    A new filter drier could be installed. While this may not be a 100% fix, it will be better than nothing.

  9. #35
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Suppy NC
    Posts
    4,513
    i agree with JR the location should be ok but the bulb needs to be strapped NOT TAPED to the line

    call the company back and explain all your concerns and ask for a differant tech to resolve them.

    you paid for a good job and there is no reason you shouldnt get one
    give them a chance to step up

    as far as the vacume being done properly this is assumed it wasnt proper and to beat the guy up on line and not being there just isnt fair

  10. #36
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    147
    Quote Originally Posted by tinknocker service tech View Post
    as far as the vacume being done properly this is assumed it wasnt proper and to beat the guy up on line and not being there just isnt fair
    I was home during the install. I was there at the start to ensure they got off to a good start with locating all the equipment and everything looked good. I did occasional checks throughout the day to ensure everything was proceeding and nothing looked out of wack. During the setup of equipment I ended up sticking around the whole time. I helped the tech figure out how to wire the VisionPro IAQ thermostat (he asked me to) since he only installed one or two before (I actually corrected some of the wiring he did, i.e. the humidifier was wired wrong and did not work until I told him how to wire it). As I was there I'm sure all of the items I listed weren't done.

    I asked questions about certain items and one of them had to do with pulling a vacuum. The tech showed me the gauge and explained how he pulled a vacuum to -30 psi (the lowest reading on the gauge). He kept the pump on for a while after reaching -30 psi. He then closed off the system, turned off the pump and released the refrigerant. He didn't keep the vacuum without the pump, so there is no way to know if there was a leak since the pump would keep pulling air out.

    A new filter drier could be installed. While this may not be a 100% fix, it will be better than nothing.
    Luckily Goodman installs a filter drier at the factory. Hopefully it is enough! What problems can moisture in the system cause?

  11. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by john_ertw View Post
    The TXV bulb on my Goodman SSX14030 a/c was installed in the "4 o'clock" position of the suction line.

    The tech who installed it explained that for suction lines upto 3/4" the bulb should go in either the 4 or 8 o'clock position while larger lines should have it installed in either the 10 or 2 o'clock position.

    The tech left all documentation including installation manuals. The TXV installation instructions specifically state that the bulb should be installed in the 10 or 2 o'clock positions without mention of suction line size.

    Are there any issues with not installing the bulb in the 10 or 2 o'clock position as the documentation calls for? Does it affect the TXV's operation?

    Also, the section of suction line that the bulb is installed on is not horizontal (it's on an angle). I have read that it should be installed on a horizontal run of suction line. Does this matter?
    I've tried to read most of the replies already given...

    2 to 4 O'Clock is the normal range for horizontal pipe sections leaving the evporator. More toward the 2 O'Clock position for larger pipes. If there is no trap after the short horizontal line and there is a riser after that run then the bulb must rather go on the vertical about 30cm up from the bend.

    You are not likely to have issues with the positioning considering the pipe size and angle.

    The bulb must make good tight mechanical and thermal contact along the full length of the bulb. The tail from bulb to TEV must be at the very highest position of the bulb pointing upwards so that the sensing liquid does not drain out by gravitation. Putting your index finger on end of the bulb and your thumb on the other, careful not to bend the tails, you should not be able to move the bulb or get it to pivot rotate parallel to the pipe it is clamped to. If you can move it then you need more same metal straps or the existing need to be tighter.

    Checking subcool and superheat is only necessary if charging weight charts for differing line lengths are not available.

  12. #38
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    4,676
    Quote Originally Posted by Marc O'Brien View Post
    I'v

    Checking subcool and superheat is only necessary if charging weight charts for differing line lengths are not available.
    i strongly disagree you should always check subcool and superheat if you dont check it how do you know if the txv is working correctly also you hope that the factory put the correct amount of refrigerant in the condensor i find it lazy not to check it

  13. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by catmanacman View Post
    i strongly disagree you should always check subcool and superheat if you dont check it how do you know if the txv is working correctly also you hope that the factory put the correct amount of refrigerant in the condensor i find it lazy not to check it
    I strongly agree with this.

    But at the same time, it is only really very necessary if you do not have the weight adjustment charts.

    Subcool and superheat analysis is the most powerful of refrigeration circuit diagnostics. But on new installs they are not necessary if you assume everything is new and in order.

    In the UK the system's are mostly mini splits, you call them ductless. The electronic valves are ordinarily at the outdoor unit. We have never known a system to have been short charged at the factory, Daikin, Mitsubishi Electric etc. I anyhow get the techs doing the start ups to not only log the dry and wet bulb on and off the indoor units but also to log what the corresponding liquid and gas pipes are at the outdoor units. This is to establish base data for future diagnostics.

    But is is not "necessary". It is certainly good practice and I encourage it. But that doesn't make it "necessary".

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