Page 1 of 8 12345678 LastLast
Results 1 to 13 of 96

Thread: Water temp

  1. #1

    Water temp

    Need a little help.

    Just had a geothermal system installed. It s split 5 ton system(2/3). I am in Kentucky and there are 5 150ft deep holes.

    Problem is the system doesn't seem to be running efficiently so I was curious and felt the temperature of the water lines. The outlet line is hot, i would guess 120 degrees. The return line is about 30 degrees cooler but still very warm to the touch. The installer tells me this will all balance out in time. Its been running for about a week now. The upstairs system cant hold 70 degrees during the day.

    This system replaces a heat pump system that worked fine for 10 years.

    I am afraid the holes were not backfilled and htere is air around the lines. Am i way off base?

    Could it be something else?

    Appreciate any help.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    801 Del Rio pike Franklin Tennessee
    Posts
    126

    Thumbs up

    Have your installer back out to check proper water in and out temps. Check the psi drop water in and out to see flow rate 5 ton= 15 gpm.
    5 wells could be air in lines.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    159
    120 degrees sounds like refrigerant temp, not water temp. Something is definitely wrong if it's water temp.

  4. #4
    It is the water line temp for sure. In fact last night when we had some heat for the day the output line was too hot to hold on to.

    The installer is coming back out this afternoon to check temps. One day last week he checked temps and it was 116 degrees. Then he came back on a cool day the unit wasn't running and said it was 62 degrees and all was good. I am afraid when it gets really hot the system will burn itself up.

    What are some of the things that will cause this. Will air in the lines cause this much of a problem. Could it be the wells were not back filled properly. If there is air around the pipe it wont conduct the heat efficiently , correct?

  5. #5
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    159
    Does the water temp get that hot on the inlet side or the outlet side of the heat exchanger? Also, is that the temp right at startup or after the system has circulated for at least 5 minutes?

    As an example, I just checked my temps yesterday, and my entering water temp (EWT) was 59.6 F, and my temp rise was 8 F (cooling mode). I have a horizontal loop buried 7 ft down in lower Michigan.

  6. #6
    It gets hot on both sides. Last night it was running hard and it was hot. Even when it shuts off its still hot.

    Situation is A friend of mine who has been in HVAC for 30 years put the system in but he contracted the drilling and piping out to another contractor who was recommended by the local equipment supplier. When my friend asked the piping guy to come over and help work this out he said he wasn't coming back to my house.

    We should have known something was up when this guy told my friend not to worry about the temps , that it would all balance out in time. He also said that since we started now that the ground wasnt as cold as it would be at the end of winter after the system ran all winter. Right then I told my friend that the BS factor just went off the scale.

    Good thing is we haven't paid him for the drilling or piping yet. With his refusal to come out and fix it I guess we have to find somebody else to fix it now. The system is cooling but struggling to hold 70 degrees and its working hard, less efficient than a regular heat pump.

    I am afraid they didn't fill the wells with anything. There was no material at the site to fill it with. Thus the piping has air around it working as an insulator from the earth/rock. It was mostly all limestone they drilled through.

    Anybody in the central Kentucky Area willing to help work this one out?

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    801 Del Rio pike Franklin Tennessee
    Posts
    126
    with 5 wells @ 150' in limestone no way you should have ewt that high. The wells need to be grouted in from the bottom up. piped between wells as first in last out. flushed with high flow rate pump to insure not air locked.
    I have two new systems in Nashville area. 1ea 5ton w/3 150' wells and 1ea 4ton w/2 150' wells they will put ice in your undies. EWT 68 to 70 F. Find a PRO well man to fix.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Cedar Rapids, Iowa
    Posts
    121
    Quote Originally Posted by chuckdvc View Post
    Situation is A friend of mine who has been in HVAC for 30 years put the system in but he contracted the drilling and piping out to another contractor who was recommended by the local equipment supplier. When my friend asked the piping guy to come over and help work this out he said he wasn't coming back to my house.

    We should have known something was up when this guy told my friend not to worry about the temps , that it would all balance out in time. He also said that since we started now that the ground wasnt as cold as it would be at the end of winter after the system ran all winter. Right then I told my friend that the BS factor just went off the scale.

    Good thing is we haven't paid him for the drilling or piping yet. With his refusal to come out and fix it I guess we have to find somebody else to fix it now. The system is cooling but struggling to hold 70 degrees and its working hard, less efficient than a regular heat pump.

    I am afraid they didn't fill the wells with anything. There was no material at the site to fill it with. Thus the piping has air around it working as an insulator from the earth/rock. It was mostly all limestone they drilled through.
    Chuck,

    Do not run your heat pump until this is resolved.

    DO NOT PAY A SINGLE PENNY to the driller. This is your only leverage over him. Any vertical bore more than 20' deep is considered a well and MUST be grouted with an enhanced thermal grout. I, personally, would not allow him to touch the loops again. I would find a QUALIFIED driller and have the loops properly installed, grouted, filled and flushed.

    Bergy

  9. #9
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Indiana
    Posts
    77
    Try -

    http://www.northwestgeothermal.com

    Kenergy Corporation
    P.O. Box 1389
    Owensboro, KY 42302-1389
    Phone: 270-926-4141

    Corken Steel Products Company
    7920 Kentucky Drive
    Florence, KY 41042
    www.corkensteel.com
    Phone: 859-291-4664

    Lyon, Conklin & Co., Inc
    118 Harris Drive
    Poca, WV 25159
    Phone: 304-755-8311

    LoopMaster International Inc.
    5700 W. Minnesota, Bldg. E
    Indianapolis, IN 46241
    http://www.loopmaster.net/
    317.246.5667

  10. #10
    Had the driller back out today and talked about the problem and possible fixes.
    Found out one issue may have been the fact one unit was running about 2 days after it was drilled. I called www.geothermalsupply.com in Horse Cave , KY. The owner told me that the well will get up to 180 degrees when its being drilled and it needs to sit for 7 days before being used. He also told me that in Kentucky its not code to grout the wells so nobody grouts residential systems.

    The driller did say they back filled the well with the limestone residue from drilling. He did say he installed a low pressure system for ease of maintenance. There is a tank for each system which is for bleeding air and filling if needed. He did explain that each loop was the same length and pressure tested and flushed. He also explained how he set up the header.

    The HVAC guy is going to call Tech support for the unit and go over all the temps & pressures and settings.

    Still seems to me we aren't getting enough heat transfer in the ground. It continues.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    801 Del Rio pike Franklin Tennessee
    Posts
    126
    Why would it take 7 days for the earth to drop the drill temp? If it takes that long to drop from 180f to 68f not a lot of transfer.
    We do not drop the drill slag in the wells it will take for ever to pack in and leave open spots in the well.
    It may not be CODE but not doing the job right with thermal grout is just WRONG.
    I hope you able to fix your system. Best of luck.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    good old Europe
    Posts
    160
    I dont believe in any way that it takes 7 days for the temperature in the drilling hole to equalize! The average temperature in earth is about 50F within the dept you mentioned. Have you seen the calculation for the heat transfer rate of the probes how many tons/ft have been estimated and at which temperature level? A 5 ton system has to reject about 6 tons of heat to the ground. This is in your case are 0,008 tons/ft. What is the average temperature spread across the condenser (hot water side outlet - inlet)? It seems that you have 30F. I would design the system to about 7 to 11F. Anything higher will cause effciency losses. There can be several reasons for your issue. Poor heat transfer from the probe to the ground, air trapped in the system, low flow rate (15gpm would be right). According to the temperature spread you mentioned you have actually about 5gpm! You could perform what we call in Europe a thermal response test (done by an expert). This would reveal the true capacity of your ground source htxs.
    "Quality exists, when the price is long forgotten."

    Henry Royce

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Cedar Rapids, Iowa
    Posts
    121
    Had the driller back out today and talked about the problem and possible fixes. Found out one issue may have been the fact one unit was running about 2 days after it was drilled. I called www.geothermalsupply.com in Horse Cave , KY. The owner told me that the well will get up to 180 degrees when its being drilled and it needs to sit for 7 days before being used. He also told me that in Kentucky its not code to grout the wells so nobody grouts residential systems.

    The driller did say they back filled the well with the limestone residue from drilling. He did say he installed a low pressure system for ease of maintenance. There is a tank for each system which is for bleeding air and filling if needed. He did explain that each loop was the same length and pressure tested and flushed. He also explained how he set up the header.
    Chuck,

    DO NOT PAY the driller until this issue is resolved!! Is the driller a member of, and accredited by, IGSHPA ? (International Ground Source association) You should contact IGSHPA and find out if not grouting a bore hole is "standard practices". You should contact other loopers around your area and ask if they grout vertical bores. Keep notes of who you talked to and what was said. We sub out our loops so I'm not an expert, but I've NEVER seen a vertical bore that was not grouted and damn sure never seen one that had drilling slag dumped back into the hole!! (We have more than a hundred geo installs.) Think of the slag like big grains of dry sand...they are more of an insulator than a conductor. You know how hot the sand is at the beach? Wiggle your toes just an inch or so down and it's nice and cool! The same thing is happening in your loop field.

    This driller is feeding you a line of BS. We have never had to allow a rock bore to "sit" for seven days. We usually have our systems running within a day or two of the loops being flushed and filled. I'm no fan of lawyers, but...
    I think you need to start keeping records of everything you do getting this resolved.

    I wish you the best of luck,

    Bergy

Page 1 of 8 12345678 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Comfortech Show Promo Image

Related Forums

Plumbing Talks | Contractor Magazine
Forums | Electrical Construction & Maintenance (EC&M) Magazine
Comfortech365 Virtual Event