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  1. #14
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Toledo, Ohio, United States
    Posts
    12,901
    Twilli says sureeeeeeeeee unless your brand is Number 1
    No Heat No Cool You need Action Fast

  2. #15
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    657
    i agree wit jerros
    "The things you own end up owning you. "

    Tyler Durden

  3. #16
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Chicago IL
    Posts
    167
    that magazine is entertainment for toilet time

  4. #17
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Toledo, Ohio, United States
    Posts
    12,901
    Twilli says sure go ahead and hate.....Twilli be laughing to the bank....
    No Heat No Cool You need Action Fast

  5. #18
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Houston,Tx.
    Posts
    15,843
    Quote Originally Posted by HeyBob View Post
    Mr Bill! Long time no see...............how the heck are ya man?
    Doing great! Twilli brought me out of hibernation today, just been going to many directions in life. I really like the GC gig, it involves little money to operate and little work for the money you can make, it's the real deal. I wished I would have started doing this 30 years ago instead of this stressful business, but hey it's all good, it all puts food on the table. It really just amazes me how little stress is involved in GC business, especially if you have yourself some super good subs, they sure make life easier, but I can afford to pay them better that your average GC, because I don't totally depend on the GC business for a living, hey life's good.
    __________________________________________________ _______________________
    “Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards". - Vernon Law

    "Never let success go to your head, and never let failure go to your heart". - Unknown

  6. #19
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Princeton, NJ
    Posts
    581
    The exact quote that goes with the attached graph is below.

    "The graph shows the percentage of units for each of the 11 brands that were ever repaired, based on the experiences of 32,550 readers who bought systems between 2002 and 2008. Differences of less than 5 points aren't meaningful. Units installed by builders broke down more often than owner-installed ones. Data was adjusted to eliminate differences linked solely to age and usage. Models within a brand can vary, and design or manufacture changes might affect future reliability. Still, choosing a brand with a good repair history can improve your odds of getting a reliable model. "
    Key
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    In the land of the blind.....the man with one eye is king....

  7. #20
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Huron, SD
    Posts
    16
    Quote Originally Posted by twilli3967 View Post
    Twilli says sureeeeeeeeee unless your brand is Number 1
    So I shouldn't purchase the Coleman Premium Comfort System

  8. #21
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Office and warehouse in both Crystal River & New Port Richey ,FL
    Posts
    18,836
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerros View Post
    Just to clarify....

    Consumer reports doesn't rate central HVAC units like they do other things be it flooring/grills/vaccumes/ect.

    However what Consumer Reports did do is create a graph that represents repairs done on 11 brands after surveying 32,550 readers who purchased systems between 2002 and 2008.

    "Differences of less than 5 points aren't meaningful" and the graph broke down Rheem and Rudd as having 10%, Trane 11%, American Standard & Bryant 12%, Carrier, Lennox & Amana 13%, York at 14%, and Goodman & Heil at 16%.

    In my opinion it's not an accurate representation of what product is good or bad. Mainly because they didn't survey 1,000 people who installed a York system, then 1,000 people who installed a Rheem system to get these numbers. They just surveyed 32,550 readers who installed a system. Meaning there could be 10 Rheem installs and 2,000 York installs. Percentage wise the more you install the higher likely hood there are going to be problems with the systems.

    Also this survey isn't very clear about "repair". Did these people install a new system and have to call the HVAC company out again to adjust something because it wasn't working right and call it a repair? Did they just buy a house from a builder and call the HVAC company out for repair because it's not working right?

    I'm glad consumer reports made an attempt at helping consumers purchase something as expensive as a HVAC system, but it's a really poor attempt in my opinion, and I'm not a professional just a consumer.
    You are`correct!Good observation,shame so many others missed the facts.

  9. #22
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Princeton, NJ
    Posts
    581
    Quote Originally Posted by key1cc View Post
    The exact quote that goes with the attached graph is below.

    "The graph shows the percentage of units for each of the 11 brands that were ever repaired, based on the experiences of 32,550 readers who bought systems between 2002 and 2008. Differences of less than 5 points aren't meaningful. Units installed by builders broke down more often than owner-installed ones. Data was adjusted to eliminate differences linked solely to age and usage. Models within a brand can vary, and design or manufacture changes might affect future reliability. Still, choosing a brand with a good repair history can improve your odds of getting a reliable model. "
    Key

    Is the underlined sentence in red above referencing installs performed by "do-it-yourselfer's" or by homeowners hiring contractors or both? Do we know?

    Key1
    In the land of the blind.....the man with one eye is king....

  10. #23
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    The Twilight Zone
    Posts
    2,964
    Quote Originally Posted by key1cc View Post
    Is the underlined sentence in red above referencing installs performed by "do-it-yourselfer's" or by homeowners hiring contractors or both? Do we know?

    Key1
    Looks to me like the sentence is referring to units installed not by builders, i.e. replacement units installed by contractors (but I'm reading between the lines).

    Take care.

  11. #24
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Keokuk, IA
    Posts
    5,520
    Quote Originally Posted by gary_g View Post
    Looks to me like the sentence is referring to units installed not by builders, i.e. replacement units installed by contractors (but I'm reading between the lines).

    Take care.
    That's what I took it to mean. It's basically confirming what most of us already know. Builders install builder grade equipment, which be definiteion, means that the MFG is forced to cut corners to hit a price point. Furthermore, the installer is a low bid outfit that slaps in most systems in a couple hours with flex and foil tape. The resulting lack of airlfow combined, construction dust and debris, with low end components, is a recipe for disaster.

    If I ever do new construction... I'm handling the HVAC independently, rather than have it sub contracted out. Don't really care if it costs 50% more... you get what you pay for.

  12. #25
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Northwest Arkansas via Chicago Area via Straight Up from There on Lake Superior
    Posts
    1,411
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerros View Post
    ...
    However what Consumer Reports did do is create a graph that represents repairs done on 11 brands after surveying 32,550 readers who purchased systems between 2002 and 2008.

    "Differences of less than 5 points aren't meaningful" and the graph broke down Rheem and Rudd as having 10%, Trane 11%, American Standard & Bryant 12%, Carrier, Lennox & Amana 13%, York at 14%, and Goodman & Heil at 16%.

    ...

    I'm glad consumer reports made an attempt at helping consumers purchase something as expensive as a HVAC system, but it's a really poor attempt in my opinion, and I'm not a professional just a consumer.
    Bad mouth CR as you like. It clarifies issues with many purchase items most of us rarely buy. Have been using it for over 30 years. I sometimes wish they tackled more serious purchases like HVAC, hot water heaters, etc. Testing such items can be difficult though.

    I almost never get extended warranties and CR does not advocate them either. What the graph told me as a consumer is that I need to look very seriously at a labor maintenance contract and warranty.

  13. #26
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    17
    Quote Originally Posted by jerryd_2008 View Post
    Bad mouth CR as you like. It clarifies issues with many purchase items most of us rarely buy. Have been using it for over 30 years. I sometimes wish they tackled more serious purchases like HVAC, hot water heaters, etc. Testing such items can be difficult though.

    I almost never get extended warranties and CR does not advocate them either. What the graph told me as a consumer is that I need to look very seriously at a labor maintenance contract and warranty.
    I'm not trying to badmouth consumer reports by any means. I've been a subscriber for years and have been pretty happy purchasing items which they've suggested (minor exception was a grill last year).

    That said they didn't do a real good job on the HVAC issue. In order for a reader to benefit at all from their observations you first must know:

    1) The number of systems installed broken down by type. (Again if 10 Rheem systems were installed and 1 broke it comes up as a 10% break down ratio but that's not horribly good odds now is it?)

    2) The year the systems were installed. (If a system was installed in 2002 it's likely to need more repairs than a system installed in 2008. This could easily skew the results for instance if systems of a certian brand name weren't popular until 2007 or 2008)

    3) What type of repairs were preformed (System adjustments on a new system could be considered a "repair" but honestly would be par for the course as seasons change for example if a heater/cooling system was installed in the summer testing the heat before fall/winter isn't going to give you an accurate result, and vise versa)

    4) Did the people keep up with the system maintenance? (most people are going to lie and say yes, even if they didn't)

    5) Finally you'd need to know who installed the system (DIY, Contractor, or Builder).

    A chart that simply shows repair rates on systems over a period of years with out this information doesn't do the consumers (like me) any good.

    This survey is about as accurate as those commercials you see on TV that say things like "9 out of 10 dentists/doctors agree...".

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