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  1. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by cehs View Post
    I draw the line at CONCEPTION, that IS when LIFE begins.
    That is when the bible draws the line also, but you seem to shun or reject the authority of the CREATOR.

    ALSO you did NOT answer the question:
    As far as awareness, I would ask what is your earliest recognition?
    Does that mean that you were NOT ALIVE prior to that recognition? EVEN though you were already born?
    Cehs, if you draw the line at conception then all this means is you fall into that group that has that opinion. Your decision is not based on any fact, at least not any valid fact. At the point of conception this life you talk of is as much a life as is a virus.

    There is no evidence of a creator, there is no evidence that if there was a creator it would even want to have anything to do with any book such as the bible. So appealing to the creator is an irrelevant nonsense. A mere red herring.

    Anyway, we have already learned that it is not a question of when does life start. A virus is also life. It is more than merely a matter of life. It is arrogance to claim knowledge or authority in the matter without any substantiation - sorry

  2. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc O'Brien View Post
    Judeo-Christian theology is wrong!


    This is a physical universe with amazing stuff to learn still about all scales of the universe. We may soon even find a way to eternal life, but that will be through physics and biology, not religion. We may find a way to communicate with each other mentally instead of the internet but that will be achieved through physics and biology - not religion
    Again with the arrogance to make claims that cannot be proven.

    Yes, this is a physical univers with amazing stuff to learn......more then likely always will be. After all, would God Create anything less then amazing?

    Religions are man made organizations that attempt, and not so successfully, to put a structure to our faith in God. I agree that religion will not only not get us to eternal life, but may actually deter us in many respects from obtaining eternal spiritual life. As for eternal physical life, that is highly unlikely no matter how much we may learn about God's Creation and God's rules of nature that govern the universe. There is no Gray area (pun intended) when it comes to living forever.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  3. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc O'Brien View Post
    I may or may not have an open heart. I do however have a very open mind
    I doubt very much if you do have an open mind and without a doubt your heart is hardened, as they used to say in the times of the Hebrew Testament.

    As a matter of fact, I have not come across someone so obvious intelligent with such a closed mind in a long time. Usually this kind of closed mindedness comes from a person who does not have the capacity to think outside of what he or she is at the moment seeing, touching, smelling, tasting or hearing. Again borrowing from scripture; "You have eyes but do not see and you have ears but do not hear."
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  4. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc O'Brien View Post
    There is no evidence of a creator, there is no evidence that if there was a creator it would even want to have anything to do with any book such as the bible. So appealing to the creator is an irrelevant nonsense. A mere red herring.
    A red herring to what argument Marc? In order for a red herring to have a purpose, there must be something that the red herring is trying to draw away from. It seems more that using science as an excuse to try to attempt to draw the attention away from what we call God is the red herring.

    There is no evidence that there is no Creator any more then there is proof that there is. There is plenty of evidence that a Creator exists. The evidence is the collective beliefs of mankind down through history. I suppose you could try to argue that this is mass histeria that is handed down from generation to generation. However, the fact is that without ever being taught about God, man will come to believe that a supreme being exists. That is the most compelling evidence of all.

    Then you have people like me who fought against religions and faith who become believers while in full swing of denying God. I don't see how any rational person could argue that logic dictates that this is evidence of a reality. If one person starts believing there is a sky daddy, that could be delusion. If two people start belieiving, we could have an epidemic. But when hundreds of thousands of people feel the same feelings, I'm gonna go with that being evidence.

    The Bibles of the Judeo-Christian faiths are not the only writings providing evidence to the existance of a Creator and Supreme being or to an eternal spiritual life. We are not talking about one man over a set period of time just coming up with rules that are useful for making him powerful and rich, as Mohammed has done. We are talking about millenia of stories that do not make the characters in the stories look very good most of the time, authored by dozens of different people in dozens of different localities with dozens of different cultures.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  5. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by RoBoTeq View Post
    I doubt very much if you do have an open mind and without a doubt your heart is hardened, as they used to say in the times of the Hebrew Testament.
    Robo, I think that when it comes to having faith in the almighty number 13 floating in a tea cup on the dark side of the moon, you have a very closed mind. You are unable to disprove the meaningfulness of my faith and yet you do nothing to convert to this one true tea time faith.

    All you have to say is "I belief the moon is a worthy host of our almighty 13 and only those with open minds that truly believe will come to see this making them worthy witnesses and bearers of testament" and you are a tea time convert and truly saved from eternal boredom.

  6. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by RoBoTeq View Post
    A red herring to what argument Marc?
    Robo, in this instance reference to the bible is a red herring in that it is an irrelevant distraction detracting from the topic at hand.

    Now, to understand what nonsense the Judeo Christian religions are...

    1) Read the bible.
    2) Read Christ in Egypt

  7. #85
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    OK, Marc, when did YOUR life begin?
    At conception?
    At birth?
    At self awareness?

    WHEN? Age 2-3-4-5-6? WHEN???
    Those who dance, appear insane to those who do not hear the music.
    Those who believe, appear ignorant to those who do not know God.

  8. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by cehs View Post
    OK, Marc, when did YOUR life begin?
    At conception?
    At birth?
    At self awareness?

    WHEN? Age 2-3-4-5-6? WHEN???
    My life is not of any importance.

    When could I first have experienced anguish? Hmmm, probably after birth.

  9. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc O'Brien View Post
    Robo, I think that when it comes to having faith in the almighty number 13 floating in a tea cup on the dark side of the moon, you have a very closed mind. You are unable to disprove the meaningfulness of my faith and yet you do nothing to convert to this one true tea time faith.

    All you have to say is "I belief the moon is a worthy host of our almighty 13 and only those with open minds that truly believe will come to see this making them worthy witnesses and bearers of testament" and you are a tea time convert and truly saved from eternal boredom.
    Talk about red herring BS, jeez Marc, you have kind of really let me down in thinking you could be a rational person.

    Have it your way Marc. I have thrown too many pearls before you as it is and I have no clue as to how to have an open minded conversation with you. Just please, at least try to have respect for those of us who wish to converse on subjects of faith without injecting your hateful rhetoric into our discussions. Please Marc, just let us stay ignorant fools chasing sky daddies without rubbing it in our faces how stupid we are. Can you at least do that for us poor jackasses who lack your obvious superiour intellect and foresight?

    Thank you in advance.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  10. #88
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by cehs
    OK, Marc, when did YOUR life begin?
    At conception?
    At birth?
    At self awareness?

    WHEN? Age 2-3-4-5-6? WHEN???

    My life is not of any importance.

    When could I first have experienced anguish? Hmmm, probably after birth.
    - - - - - - - - - - - -
    Marc, I am just trying to make the point that YOUR life IS important, as is ALL HUMAN life.
    You mentioned earlier that the aborted fetus is PROBABLY not aware of pain or anguish. I dissagree.
    If the fetus (before being aborted) is life the same as a virus or a tooth, then PAIN is present and aware during abortion.
    Human life begins at conception or the WOMAN would NOT BE PREGNANT (with CHILD)!

    I am TRYING to apeal to your logic, which seems somewhat stubborn, that LIFE is precious and not to be thrown away lightly or easily.
    Yours, mine, or anybody's LIFE.
    MANY, MANY people who were concieved, but not wanted, turned out to be extremely worthwhile to humanity.
    An example is the family where the woman is pregnant, she has TB, the husband has syphylis, there are already several children (9 I think), the family is quite poor.
    So the question is what should be done with the FETUS?
    ABORT?
    You just killed Beetoven.....
    Those who dance, appear insane to those who do not hear the music.
    Those who believe, appear ignorant to those who do not know God.

  11. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by RoBoTeq View Post
    Talk about red herring BS, jeez Marc, you have kind of really let me down in thinking you could be a rational person.

    Have it your way Marc. I have thrown too many pearls before you as it is and I have no clue as to how to have an open minded conversation with you. Just please, at least try to have respect for those of us who wish to converse on subjects of faith without injecting your hateful rhetoric into our discussions. Please Marc, just let us stay ignorant fools chasing sky daddies without rubbing it in our faces how stupid we are. Can you at least do that for us poor jackasses who lack your obvious superiour intellect and foresight?

    Thank you in advance.
    Robo, there is no hatred. I pity you. I wish I could help you. But there is no hatred. I do not think you are stupid. I think your religious ideas are stupid. I do believe I have demonstrated to you with sufficient clarity that you have yet to get a grasp of the basic logic of clear argument and I can only hope that you might then extrapolate from this to imagine that possibly too you might actually be deluded regarding your religion. I understand these may seem like hateful words or attacking words but they are not at all intended to be so. They are honest words from the heart of my head

    I'm sorry I haven't yet been able to help you.

  12. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by cehs View Post
    Marc, I am just trying to make the point that YOUR life IS important, as is ALL HUMAN life.
    You mentioned earlier that the aborted fetus is PROBABLY not aware of pain or anguish. I dissagree.
    If the fetus (before being aborted) is life the same as a virus or a tooth, then PAIN is present and aware during abortion.
    Human life begins at conception or the WOMAN would NOT BE PREGNANT (with CHILD)!

    I am TRYING to apeal to your logic, which seems somewhat stubborn, that LIFE is precious and not to be thrown away lightly or easily.
    Yours, mine, or anybody's LIFE.
    MANY, MANY people who were concieved, but not wanted, turned out to be extremely worthwhile to humanity.
    An example is the family where the woman is pregnant, the husband has syphylis, there are already several children (9 I think), the family is quite poor.
    So the question is what should be done with the FETUS?
    ABORT?
    You just killed Beetoven.....
    I meant that my life is not important to the context of the question. My life is irrelevant to the question.

    Do you think Hitler's mum should have aborted?

    Although Ludwig Van Beethoven's parents did have 7 children. Beethoven was NOT the youngest. He was the 2nd born child to his parents on December 17th 1770. The first born was named Ludwig Maria. Though Ludwig Maria did die six days after his birth. There is no knowledge that he was born blind, deaf or mentally retarded.

    Though Beethoven's father was a known alcoholic, he was not known to abuse his children. As far as the sniffles argument, the sniffles are simply when you have a stuffy nose from allergies or a cold. It's not a fatal disease. I don't think most people base decisions on weather or not the father to be, happens to have a cold or allergies, and history tends not record every little sneeze a person has during their life. Even if that person is Beethoven's father.

    His mother did not have syphilis. She did contract tuberculosis, but not until Beethoven was nearly 20 years old. Beethoven's parents had 5 children after him. Casper Anton Carl, Nikolaus Johann, Anna-Maria Franziska, Franz Georg, and Maria Margareth Josepha. Anna-Maria and Franz Georg both died only days after their birth. None of the children were known to be blind, deaf or mentally retarded. None were ever in a mental institution.

    There are many versions to this lie. Some claim that Beethoven was deaf at birth and became a great composer despite this disability. This is also false information. Beethoven suffered hearing loss which was caused by scarlet fever not genetics. He was already an accomplished composer by the time he started to lose his hearing. Beethoven's loss of hearing caused him to withdraw into a deep depression. He withdrew himself from the public and his friends.

    Other versions of this abortion argument state that Ludwig Van Beethoven was blind. This was never true at all.

  13. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc O'Brien View Post
    I meant that my life is not important to the context of the question. My life is irrelevant to the question.

    Do you think Hitler's mum should have aborted?

    Although Ludwig Van Beethoven's parents did have 7 children. Beethoven was NOT the youngest. He was the 2nd born child to his parents on December 17th 1770. The first born was named Ludwig Maria. Though Ludwig Maria did die six days after his birth. There is no knowledge that he was born blind, deaf or mentally retarded.

    Though Beethoven's father was a known alcoholic, he was not known to abuse his children. As far as the sniffles argument, the sniffles are simply when you have a stuffy nose from allergies or a cold. It's not a fatal disease. I don't think most people base decisions on weather or not the father to be, happens to have a cold or allergies, and history tends not record every little sneeze a person has during their life. Even if that person is Beethoven's father.

    His mother did not have syphilis. She did contract tuberculosis, but not until Beethoven was nearly 20 years old. Beethoven's parents had 5 children after him. Casper Anton Carl, Nikolaus Johann, Anna-Maria Franziska, Franz Georg, and Maria Margareth Josepha. Anna-Maria and Franz Georg both died only days after their birth. None of the children were known to be blind, deaf or mentally retarded. None were ever in a mental institution.

    There are many versions to this lie. Some claim that Beethoven was deaf at birth and became a great composer despite this disability. This is also false information. Beethoven suffered hearing loss which was caused by scarlet fever not genetics. He was already an accomplished composer by the time he started to lose his hearing. Beethoven's loss of hearing caused him to withdraw into a deep depression. He withdrew himself from the public and his friends.

    Other versions of this abortion argument state that Ludwig Van Beethoven was blind. This was never true at all.
    Marc, YOU WIN, you are smarter than everyone else here.
    We wish you only the best on the sea of life that happend randomly due to nothing other than PURE chance.
    Thanks for your vast and great knowledge that we are ignorant.

    By the way, I pray to God, the creator that you will one day see HIS truth and knowledge.

    Chris
    Those who dance, appear insane to those who do not hear the music.
    Those who believe, appear ignorant to those who do not know God.

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