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  1. #66
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    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Tiller the late term abortion doctor in Kansas City was shot to death this morning at his church.

    Good Deal.
    Tough times don't last...Tough people do.

    Midnight Sun Astrophotography

  2. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc O'Brien View Post
    Me and mine too
    I acknowledged that persons of no religious faith can live just as good a life as those who use a faith based religion to guide them. The question poised by lance was "what if I am wrong?". I will pose that same question to you Marc; "What if you are wrong about there being nothing after mortal death?"

    Better yet, what if our mortal lives are just the journey to our destination? Are you prepared for where you are going? Getting there may be half the fun, but eternity is sure a lot longer then the average mortal life
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  3. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc O'Brien View Post
    Robo, I promise, I am trying my damnest!! Have you considered yet that I might actually be too stupid for all this?
    No. You've done screwed up being able to use this excuse
    Okay, back to the matter. What you are asking me is a little more clearer. I think what is not clear is only your thinking. Let me explain, very briefly...
    Of course! It must be because I am not thinking clearly that you cannot follow a logical procession of events. How silly of me to not realize it has to my fault that you are having troubles getting around this issue
    The answer to your questions has to be a resounding NO!

    That means I cannot agree with you when you make the statement "can we agree that an abortion is, in most cases, an unnecessary operation?"

    Why can I not agree with you? Because the statement is a conclusion but it has no supporting premise.
    I'll play your silly game Marc. How about if I pose the question like this; Marc, do you believe that most abortions are neccesary? If so, why? Would it be neccesary to have an abortion if one was not pregnant? Why is abortion a better choice then giving birth?

    Can you answer any of those questions, Marc?
    You see the two leading statements, which you seem to think are supporting premiss's or presuppositions, are in fact not related to the conclusion.

    The conclusion you would however be able to draw would be "we must then agree that unwanted pregnancies, in most cases, are an unnecessary situation."

    If you want to conclude that instead abortion is an unnecessary operation then you would have to present a set of related suppositions that allow us to arrive at that different so far unsupported conclusion.

    Now, to date, people have failed to do this. That is why abortion remains an option.

    Thanks to the spirit of justice human kind has evolved to maintain.
    Aside from blaming me for not being able to properly pose a question to you as your reason for not answering simple questions, and blaming human nature for making us too stupid and irresponsible to keep from getting pregnant or to carry full term so that abortion "must" be the way to go, do you think that the "option" of abortion is more logical then avoiding having an abortion?
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  4. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by RoBoTeq View Post
    I acknowledged that persons of no religious faith can live just as good a life as those who use a faith based religion to guide them. The question poised by lance was "what if I am wrong?". I will pose that same question to you Marc; "What if you are wrong about there being nothing after mortal death?"

    Better yet, what if our mortal lives are just the journey to our destination? Are you prepared for where you are going? Getting there may be half the fun, but eternity is sure a lot longer then the average mortal life
    It is nonsense to even ask such a question. There may be another life after death. Only for bad people. Maybe only for good people. Maybe for everyone. Maybe good people get punished for working against the world of survival of the fittest. Maybe bad people get punished. Maybe there is a god who has never thought of any difference between bad and good and will only learn a little when it returns to smote us. So what? No body, not a single person who has ever lived, has ever provided any evidence whatsoever that any of these scenarios or any others are in any way possible.

    The whole question is meaningless - absolutely meaningless and may have had its place in the bronze and iron age but it is completely out of place in the modern more enlightened world we live in now.

  5. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by RoBoTeq View Post
    1) Marc, do you believe that most abortions are neccesary?

    2) If so, why?

    3) Would it be neccesary to have an abortion if one was not pregnant?

    4) Why is abortion a better choice then giving birth?

    5) ...do you think that the "option" of abortion is more logical then avoiding having an abortion?
    1) I am not privy to the details of enough abortions to make such an observation except to say, regarding one had by someone I know, I was never in support of it and would prefer that they had never taken the option. They were utterly distressed and despite all sorts of assurances from a good supporting network ultimately needed to go through it anyway and today is happier for it.

    2) I believe that in the single case I did know of - it was as necessary as is necessary to get my support - against the flow of my own ideals. But it is not my ideals that matter.

    3) It certainly is not necessary to have an abortion if one is not pregnant.

    4) This question is merely a paraphrasing of question 2.

    5) Question 5 is another non-question. The two options are not clear dichotomies.

  6. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc O'Brien View Post
    It is nonsense to even ask such a question. There may be another life after death. Only for bad people. Maybe only for good people. Maybe for everyone. Maybe good people get punished for working against the world of survival of the fittest. Maybe bad people get punished. Maybe there is a god who has never thought of any difference between bad and good and will only learn a little when it returns to smote us. So what? No body, not a single person who has ever lived, has ever provided any evidence whatsoever that any of these scenarios or any others are in any way possible.

    The whole question is meaningless - absolutely meaningless and may have had its place in the bronze and iron age but it is completely out of place in the modern more enlightened world we live in now.
    Am I understanding correctly that you feel that not being prepared for anything that may occur is better then being prepared for something that may not occur?
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  7. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc O'Brien View Post
    1) I am not privy to the details of enough abortions to make such an observation except to say, regarding one had by someone I know, I was never in support of it and would prefer that they had never taken the option. They were utterly distressed and despite all sorts of assurances from a good supporting network ultimately needed to go through it anyway and today is happier for it.

    2) I believe that in the single case I did know of - it was as necessary as is necessary to get my support - against the flow of my own ideals. But it is not my ideals that matter.

    3) It certainly is not necessary to have an abortion if one is not pregnant.

    4) This question is merely a paraphrasing of question 2.

    5) Question 5 is another non-question. The two options are not clear dichotomies.
    I did not realize that you have such little data to go on with this subject, Marc. I assumed you had some sort of reason for making comments about a religious manual being a bad source of information. It looks to me by your one example that you were privy to that information provided by scripture could have have not only helped in the decisions made by the person you know who had an abortion, but could have more so helped in the understanding of their decision. Scripture is not just for telling us not to do things and then reprimanding us for doing them. Scripture is also for helping us deal with things we have done or that occur to us, whether we were responsible for the occurances or not.

    You seem to be open to studying scripture. I would like for you to keep an open mind and heart when you are doing so from now on. As long as no one is looking, even try communicating with that which you don't believe exists. Do this as if you were trying to send a mind to mind message to someone. What can it hurt Marc? If you are alone when doing this, whose to know?......or are you afraid your thoughts might be heard?
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  8. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by RoBoTeq View Post
    Am I understanding correctly that you feel that not being prepared for anything that may occur is better then being prepared for something that may not occur?
    It's impossible to be prepared for anything as in prepare for every imaginable, or in this case imaginary, outcome. There are an infinite number of possibilties. Maybe there are millions of gods, all as violent, jealous and hell bent on punishing as your god, then what? How do you prepare for that?

  9. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc O'Brien View Post
    It's impossible to be prepared for anything as in prepare for every imaginable, or in this case imaginary, outcome. There are an infinite number of possibilties. Maybe there are millions of gods, all as violent, jealous and hell bent on punishing as your god, then what? How do you prepare for that?
    Boy, do you make this a lot harder then anyone I have ever heard make it

    No wonder you think of yourself as an atheist. I would give up on faith too if my mind worked itself up like this

    Why do you say there are an infinite number of possibilities for a spiritual existance?

    Your snide comment about our spiritual existance being imaginary aside, just how many outcomes would you think possible? Throughout the history of mankind as far back as we have found evidence of, man has considered a spiritual conflict between what we define as good and evil. The premise of all spiritual faiths is that we strive to be accepted on the side of good or else we will wind up on the side of evil.

    How can someone who claims to not believe in a spiritual existance come up with so many variables for the very thing you claim you don't believe in? No matter how many gods or how bad some might be, the choice is to prepare ourselves for good or be without good and maybe even with evil.

    Judeo-Christian theology may be telling us that if we are spiritually prepared we will be with God and if not we will not be with God. Whether without God or in an actual hellish place, I'm gonna go with the God thing. In hedging my bets, being prepared is simply the most logical thing to do.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  10. #75
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    Marc it is obvious you are being deliberately obtuse, which understandable because I have been exactly where you are now. I was a dedicated agnostic from the ninth grade until just a few years ago nearly 35 years. There comes a point in many people's lives where we ask logical questions that cannot be answered. My time came when I had fallen to a very low point of extreme despair the point of not caring if I lived or died.

    For some reason something drove me to snap out of it and get on with my life. I meet a woman that was a widow with a 17 year old daughter, they showed me a different meaning to life and asked me to just read the bible and allow God to reach me. I did this and an amazing thing happened I began to understand what I never had before and I felt the presence of God in my life. There is a reason they it is called faith because that is exactly what it is, and only an open heart will get you there logic never will.

    I truly feel sorry for people that have not been able to make the leap of faith it takes to allow the Lord into your heart because you will never know true peace or contentment until you do.

  11. #76
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by cehs
    I was taught that life was the opposite of dead.
    An organism that took in food, grew, multiplied (cellular).
    That would define the embryo as alive.
    Plants are alive, so are embryos.
    As far as awareness, I would ask what is your earliest recognition?
    Does that mean that you were NOT ALIVE prior to that recognition? EVEN though you were already born?

    Abortion is killing! PERIOD! ! ! !

    Quote from mark O
    You have to find some place to draw the line otherwise simply using anti biotics is also killing! Period! The question is whether it is murder, not whether it is taking a life unless your definition of "taking a life" precisely is murder in which case just stick to the word murder.
    - - - - - - - -
    I draw the line at CONCEPTION, that IS when LIFE begins.
    That is when the bible draws the line also, but you seem to shun or reject the authority of the CREATOR.

    ALSO you did NOT answer the question:
    As far as awareness, I would ask what is your earliest recognition?
    Does that mean that you were NOT ALIVE prior to that recognition? EVEN though you were already born?
    Those who dance, appear insane to those who do not hear the music.
    Those who believe, appear ignorant to those who do not know God.

  12. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by RoBoTeq View Post
    Judeo-Christian theology may be telling us that if we are spiritually prepared we will be with God and if not we will not be with God. Whether without God or in an actual hellish place, I'm gonna go with the God thing. In hedging my bets, being prepared is simply the most logical thing to do.
    Judeo-Christian theology is wrong!


    This is a physical universe with amazing stuff to learn still about all scales of the universe. We may soon even find a way to eternal life, but that will be through physics and biology, not religion. We may find a way to communicate with each other mentally instead of the internet but that will be achieved through physics and biology - not religion

  13. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by classical View Post
    Marc it is obvious you are being deliberately obtuse.

    I truly feel sorry for people that have not been able to make the leap of faith it takes to allow the Lord into your heart because you will never know true peace or contentment until you do.
    Classical, I am simply trying to determine, objectively, whether Robo has a point I should consider. So far I only understand that he thinks he has a point. I have yet to discover what that point is.

    I may or may not have an open heart. I do however have a very open mind
    Last edited by Marc O'Brien; 06-01-2009 at 07:55 PM.

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