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  1. #27
    "attend a church"

    what a joke.

  2. #28
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    South Western Ontario
    Posts
    1,299
    Greetings and salutations, Marc. It's good to see you posting here again.

    I just noticed another thread running on this news story. It does seem to be going another direction than what I intended for this one. I'm not sure if the moderators will merge or let two threads run.

    Anyway, why don't you think abortion is murder? When do you think life begins?
    Preach the Gospel at all times - if necessary, use words. St. Francis of Assisi

  3. #29
    I am not in favour of abortion or the death penalty.

    But whether abortion is murder, to me it would be a question of whether the feutus had a conscience sufficient to experience anguish. If I had to make a guess I'd say no conscience, within the relevent context, and therefore no murder.

    Talking of St. Francis of Assisi, do you not think in this day and age the patron saints St. Isidore of Seville and St. Clare are of more relevence?

  4. #30
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Near Atlanta, GA.
    Posts
    14,501

  5. #31
    Copied from the net...


    What is life?

    MOTION -- does it seem to move under its own power? Does it move
    with some discernible purpose? (Toward food, away from heat, etc)

    REPRODUCTION -- does it have some way of making more of itself,
    either through sexual reproduction or by budding or fissioning in
    some way?

    CONSUMPTION -- does it eat or drink? Does it take in nutrients
    in one way or another in order to survive, grow, and eventually
    multiply?

    GROWTH -- does the organism develop over time, increase in
    complexity, until it reaches a mature stage?

    STIMULUS RESPONSE -- does the organism respond to external
    stimuli, i.e. has a nervous system of some sort to detect
    external conditions?
    To qualify as a living thing, an organism must in one way or
    another meet each of those criteria. After all, crystals grow
    in solution, and take on more material from the surrounding
    solution in order to do so, but do not respond neurologically
    if you poke them with a pin. Of course, you don't often see
    mature Ponderosa pines strolling down Fifth Avenue either, so
    the criteria are open to interpretation. Plants move through
    growth, except in special cases like the Venus flytrap; most
    plants follow the sun through a complex system which floods the
    side of the plant shaded from the sun with water, swelling the
    shaded side and causing the plant to lean toward the sun.

    Even when all the criteria are met, it may be difficult to
    determine if something is alive or not. Take a virus. It is
    a strand of either DNA or RNA, and cannot move on its own
    power. Yet when it attaches itself to a receptive host, it
    inserts itself into the cell and forces the host to make more
    of the virus, a clear reproductive plan. It utilizes the host's
    cellular processes to do so, in a sense taking in "nutrients"
    in order to survive and multiply. In some cases, exterior
    conditions cause the virus to integrate itself into the host DNA,
    in order to hide until conditions are better to reproduce, showing
    a response to external stimuli. Is it alive?

  6. #32
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Urbandale IA. USA
    Posts
    4,913
    I was taught that life was the opposite of dead.
    An organism that took in food, grew, multiplied (cellular).
    That would define the embryo as alive.
    Plants are alive, so are embryos.
    As far as awareness, I would ask what is your earliest recognition?
    Does that mean that you were NOT ALIVE prior to that recognition? EVEN though you were already born?

    Abortion is killing! PERIOD! ! ! !
    Those who dance, appear insane to those who do not hear the music.
    Those who believe, appear ignorant to those who do not know God.

  7. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by cehs View Post
    I was taught that life was the opposite of dead.
    An organism that took in food, grew, multiplied (cellular).
    That would define the embryo as alive.
    Plants are alive, so are embryos.
    As far as awareness, I would ask what is your earliest recognition?
    Does that mean that you were NOT ALIVE prior to that recognition? EVEN though you were already born?

    Abortion is killing! PERIOD! ! ! !
    You have to find some place to draw the line otherwise simply using anti biotics is also killing! Period! The question is whether it is murder, not whether it is taking a life unless your definition of "taking a life" precisely is murder in which case just stick to the word murder.

  8. #34
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    6,486
    Copied from the Bible, if thats your benchmark. no pun intended.
    Psalms 139:13-16
    You kept me screened off in the belly of my mother.....your eyes saw even the embryo of me, and in your book all its parts were down in writing.

    From the moment of conception a person becomes alive.

    This man was legal mass murder but because what he did was legal in this country people have become complacent. Just like they have about several other bible truths. Just because others are saying or doing it doesnt make it right.
    You sure are cocky for a starving pilgrim.

  9. #35
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Eastern PA
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    68,933
    Quote Originally Posted by classical View Post
    Robin I think you missed the intent here, he is asking if anyone thinks the killer should not be put to death he is not excusing Tillers killer.

    As far as my not wanting an abortionist in my church sorry legal or not that is being the epitome of a hypocrite to attend church and kill unborn children the rest of the week. Yes a church should be to heal sins but I would also not want Charles Manson or Jeffery Dahmer in my church.

    Abortion is only legal because of a ruling from a stacked court. What is worst about this guy is he specialize in late term abortions. He was not trying to repentant or changed he had slaughtered unborn children for more than 36 years, he made a conscious decision in 1973 to perform late term abortions, I assume primarily because he could make more money. Murder for hire is the most insidious form of murder and an abortionist is the personification of a murderer for hire.

    My feelings towards abortion have strengthened since my granddaughter was born especially since I saw the first sonogram at 13 weeks.
    This is exactly why we need to have separation of church and state. Not all citizens have the same religious convictions, so there must be societal laws to guide us. Individual beliefs can still be the convictions of the individuals, but in a free society, these beliefs should not be imposed on others unless a legal matter has been made of it.

    Like it or not, Tilly was not doing anything that was illegal and did not deserve to be murdered, by societal law. If you believe that you have the right to condemn a person to death by your religious beliefs, then you need to move to a country that agrees with you.

    Life stinks sometimes. I agree that the attempts to stop Tilly and others from what they were legally doing were the right things to do, as long as they were within the law of our society.

    As much as I don't particularly like living in a world where promiscuity and disregard for basic responsibility allows for women to so haphazardly get themselves pregnant and then just minimizes this irresponsibility by allowing the pregnancy to be terminated, it would be worse to live in a society that allows religious beliefs to control all citizens alike.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  10. #36
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    Eastern PA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc O'Brien View Post
    This is the key question that remains unanswered satisfactorily.

    If abortion is not murder then it is also not an act of heinous violence or however you want to put it.

    If abortion is murder then, well, it's murder and so must not be tollerated.

    Answer that one question and you will solve the whole issue in a single stroke.

    Until such a time, those who believe it is not murder will remain unopposed to it to varying degrees and contexts, and those who believe it is murder will remain opposed to it.
    On a legal basis, Marc is absolutely correct. Do we really want to turn the United States into a religious organization run country? If so, which religion? Christianity? Fine; which denomination?

    Like it or not, if you want to live in a free society, you must accept and legally respect the freedoms that others desire as well as your own.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  11. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by zachhvac View Post
    Copied from the Bible, if thats your benchmark. no pun intended.
    Psalms 139:13-16
    You kept me screened off in the belly of my mother.....your eyes saw even the embryo of me, and in your book all its parts were down in writing.

    From the moment of conception a person becomes alive.

    This man was legal mass murder but because what he did was legal in this country people have become complacent. Just like they have about several other bible truths. Just because others are saying or doing it doesnt make it right.
    The bible unfortunately is not an expert on these matters. The bible also says you should kill anyone who works on the Sabbath. Do you? And anyway, the bible is only relevent if it can be shown to provide a reliable testament. Unfortunately it is utterly hopeless as testament. Since it can neither provide any coherrent argument it is utterly irrelevent with regard to the matter at hand.

  12. #38
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Eastern PA
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    Quote Originally Posted by zachhvac View Post
    Copied from the Bible, if thats your benchmark. no pun intended.
    Psalms 139:13-16
    You kept me screened off in the belly of my mother.....your eyes saw even the embryo of me, and in your book all its parts were down in writing.

    From the moment of conception a person becomes alive.

    This man was legal mass murder but because what he did was legal in this country people have become complacent. Just like they have about several other bible truths. Just because others are saying or doing it doesnt make it right.
    Alive and human are two very different things. Our hair and fingernails are alive when we cut them off, essentially killing them.

    There is life in the sperm and the eggs even before conception. If you don't want to be a killer of life, never allow your sperm to again leave your body

    In the eyes of some, Tiller may have been a mass murderer. But as you point out, he was a legal mass murderer. We must have laws in order to prevent chaos. In a free society, laws must be able to allow for the freedoms of all citizens, despite their individual religious beliefs.

    Tiller did not need to be murdered in order for him to face his true judgement for his mortal crimes. Tiller, like all of us, was going to die a mortal death no matter what. The person who murdered Tiller was not justified by faith or by law. Just another person who desires to rule in the mortal realm rather then live to better their own spiritual essence. Maybe Tiller and his murderer can share some time discussing this where they will be in eternity.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  13. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc O'Brien View Post
    The bible unfortunately is not an expert on these matters. The bible also says you should kill anyone who works on the Sabbath. Do you? And anyway, the bible is only relevent if it can be shown to provide a reliable testament. Unfortunately it is utterly hopeless as testament. Since it can neither provide any coherrent argument it is utterly irrelevent with regard to the matter at hand.
    I was hoping you would have respect for others of faith to not start your anti-Christian diatribes again Marc. As a man of faith and an obvious sinner, I am just asking that you respect the beliefs of others, especially those of us who respect your beliefs.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


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