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  1. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by homersodyssey View Post
    The problem with an arbitrary point for life is that it is so ... arbitrary. So life is legally protected at day thirty and not twenty nine? Are we absolutely sure we know when day one occured? If I challenged this arbitrary point in court, how would the defence present its case?
    This is true. I would argue that arbitrary points, in this context, are relative to other arbitrary points.

    But then desperate woman will invest all sorts of ways to try beat the new system and if necessary find a friend to help them carry out the procedure in a garage. Then we're all right back at why we made it legal in the first place.

    Remember, the church doesn't want it legalised. Only sensible people do and luckily sensible people get into positions of power most of the time when it comes to legalities because you have to sensibly argue your way up the ranks rather than be voted up the ranks

  2. #119
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    Slavery was once legalized by apparently sensible people too.

    Abortion should not be legal as it is murder. The Holocaust was carried out by people who should have known better. Their sensibilities were obstructed by zealots who made them think the Jews weren't human/legally protected from murder.

    If arbitrariness is the measure for determining who gets legal protection from murder then I'd say our society is on thin ice. To compare life to the posted speed limit reduces our entire existence to some mundane bureaucratic task. You shouldn't need to believe in God to see the hole in that theory.
    Preach the Gospel at all times - if necessary, use words. St. Francis of Assisi

  3. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by homersodyssey View Post
    I doubt it as I've pointed it out to him several times. However, I haven't given up hope on him yet.
    Unfortunately, due to the resources you cite, you point out many things that are not true or accurate.

    You are the type of person that supports the kind of thinking that Marc has the best. If you were the only source of theology I had to rely on, I too would be an atheist.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  4. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by homersodyssey View Post
    Slavery was once legalized by apparently sensible people too.

    Abortion should not be legal as it is murder. The Holocaust was carried out by people who should have known better. Their sensibilities were obstructed by zealots who made them think the Jews weren't human/legally protected from murder.

    If arbitrariness is the measure for determining who gets legal protection from murder then I'd say our society is on thin ice. To compare life to the posted speed limit reduces our entire existence to some mundane bureaucratic task. You shouldn't need to believe in God to see the hole in that theory.
    Indeed, apparently sensible people across the world still believe in gods. Despite the most socially progressive countries all being atheist.

    But you can't now make everything we do legally today suddenly illegal simply because of the fact that slavery once was legal. What should be legal should be decided each time on a case by case basis in accordance, obviously by definition, with prevalent paradigms.

    I don't see a hole in the arbitrary theory. I certainly believe that being religious only blinkers ones ability to be clear minded on such matters. Life is one long continuum from abiogenisis to this planets extinction. From one's parents copulating to one's cremation or past one's decaying.

    Perhaps the limit for aborting a life could arbitrarily be set to puberty giving us plenty of time to see whether a life will be of any use to us

  5. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc O'Brien View Post
    Indeed, apparently sensible people across the world still believe in gods. Despite the most socially progressive countries all being atheist.

    OK Marc, enough is enough of your arrogant, boorish attacks on those of us of faith. Show data supporting this statement.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  6. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by homersodyssey View Post
    Slavery was once legalized by apparently sensible people too.

    Abortion should not be legal as it is murder. The Holocaust was carried out by people who should have known better. Their sensibilities were obstructed by zealots who made them think the Jews weren't human/legally protected from murder.

    If arbitrariness is the measure for determining who gets legal protection from murder then I'd say our society is on thin ice. To compare life to the posted speed limit reduces our entire existence to some mundane bureaucratic task. You shouldn't need to believe in God to see the hole in that theory.
    Good points made homer (did I just post that out loud?!).

    I do want to make it clear that while I do not support abortions for various reasons, I do not wish to make abortions illegal. I just don't want to be responsible for the irresponsibility of others to keep from becoming pregnant or that just don't want to take the responsibility of carrying to full term.

    As long as insurance does not pay for social abortions (that's what most of them are nowadays) or my tax dollars used in any way to support abortions, I say let those who want to do this to their bodies do it.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  7. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by RoBoTeq View Post
    OK Marc, enough is enough of your arrogant, boorish attacks on those of us of faith. Show data supporting this statement.
    Robo, google it

  8. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc O'Brien View Post
    Robo, google it
    No Marc! This is your statement. Either back it up or back off of it.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  9. #126
    From Google...

    Very relevent regarding religious people and their behaviour when the most simplist of logical questions are put to them such as I have presented here on ARP many a time...

    The behavior of confirmation bias has sometimes been called "Tolstoy syndrome", in reference to Russian writer Leo Tolstoy (1828-1910), who in 1897 wrote:

    “ I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept the simplest and most obvious truth if it be such as would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabrics of their life. ”

    A related Tolstoy quote is:

    “ The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him"

  10. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by RoBoTeq View Post
    No Marc! This is your statement. Either back it up or back off of it.
    Gawd, Robo, surely, it is a very heavily discussed topic on the web to google, you should look to learn a little about it...

    Here is stuff lifted from the first google result I got...

    Several weeks ago, a ground-breaking study on religious belief and social well-being was published in the Journal of Religion & Society. Comparing 18 prosperous democracies from the U.S. to New Zealand, author Gregory S Paul quietly demolished the myth that faith strengthens society.

    Drawing on a wide range of studies to cross-match faith – measured by belief in God and acceptance of evolution – with homicide and sexual behavior, Paul found that secular societies have lower rates of violence and teenage pregnancy than societies where many people profess belief in God.

    Top of the class, in both atheism and good behavior, come the Japanese. Over eighty percent accept evolution and fewer than ten percent are certain that God exists. Despite its size – over a hundred million people – Japan is one of the least crime-prone countries in the world. It also has the lowest rates of teenage pregnancy of any developed nation.

    (Teenage pregnancy has less tragic consequences than violence but it is usually unwanted, and it is frequently associated with deprivation among both mothers and children. In general, it is a Bad Thing.)

    Next in line are the Norwegians, British, Germans and Dutch. At least sixty percent accept evolution as a fact and fewer than one in three are convinced that there is a deity. There is little teenage pregnancy , although the Brits, with over 40 pregnancies per 1,000 girls a year, do twice as badly as the others. Homicide rates are also low -- around 1-2 victims per 100,000 people a year.

    At the other end of the scale comes America. Over 50 percent of Americans believe in God, and only 40 percent accept some form of evolution (many believe it had a helping hand from the Deity). The U.S. has the highest rate of teenage pregnancy and homicide rates are at least five times greater than in Europe and ten times higher than in Japan.

    All this information points to a strong correlation between faith and antisocial behavior -- a correlation so strong that there is good reason to suppose that religious belief does more harm than good.

    At first glance that is a preposterous suggestion, given that religions preach non-violence and sexual restraint. However, close inspection reveals a different story. Faith tends to weaken rather than strengthen people’s ability to participate in society. That makes it less likely they will respect social customs and laws.

    All believers learn that God holds them responsible for their actions. So far so good, but for many, belief absolves them of all other responsibilities. Consciously or subconsciously, those who are "born again" or "chosen" have diminished respect for others who do not share their sect or their faith. Convinced that only the Bible offers "truth", they lose their intellectual curiosity and their ability to reason. Their priority becomes not the world they live in but themselves.

    The more people prioritize themselves rather than those around them, the weaker society becomes and the greater the likelihood of antisocial behavior. Hence gun laws which encourage Americans to see each other not as fellow human beings who deserve protection, but as potential aggressors who deserve to die. And hence a health care system which looks after the wealthy rather than the ill.

    As for sex… Faith encourages ignorance rather than responsible behavior. In other countries, sex education includes contraception, reducing the risk of unwanted pregnancies. Such an approach recognizes that young people have the right to make their own choices and helps them make decisions that benefit society as a whole. In America faith-driven abstinence programs deny them that right -- "As a Christian I will only help you if you do what I say". The result is soaring rates of unwanted pregnancy and sexually transmitted infections.

    Abstinence programs rest on the same weak intellectual foundation as creationism and intelligent design. Faith discourages unprejudiced analysis. Reasoning is subverted to rationalization that supports rather than questions assumptions. The result is a self-contained system that maintains an internal logic, no matter how absurd to outside observers.

    The constitutional wall that theoretically separates church and state is irrelevant. Religion has overwhelmed the nation to permeate all public discussion. Look no further than Gary Bauer, a man who in any other western nation would be dismissed as a fanatic and who in America is interviewed deferentially on prime time television.

    Despite all its fine words, religion has brought in its wake little more than violence, prejudice and sexual disease. True morality is found elsewhere. As UK Guardian columnist George Monbiot concluded in his review of Gregory Paul’s study, "if you want people to behave as Christians advocate, you should tell them that God does not exist."

    I might express that another way. The flip side of Monbiot's argument is that God would be an atheist.

  11. #128
    Morton's demon

    Morton's Demon was devised by Glenn R. Morton in 2002 as part of a thought experiment to explain his own experience of confirmation bias. By analogy with Maxwell's demon, Morton's demon stands at the gateway of a person's senses and lets in facts that agree with that person's beliefs while deflecting those that do not.

    Morton was at one time a Young Earth creationist who later disavowed this belief. The demon was his way of referring to his own bias and that which he continued to observe in other Young Earth creationists. With time it has become a common shorthand for confirmation bias in a variety of situations.

  12. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc O'Brien View Post
    From Google...

    Very relevent regarding religious people and their behaviour when the most simplist of logical questions are put to them such as I have presented here on ARP many a time...

    The behavior of confirmation bias has sometimes been called "Tolstoy syndrome", in reference to Russian writer Leo Tolstoy (1828-1910), who in 1897 wrote:

    “ I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept the simplest and most obvious truth if it be such as would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabrics of their life. ”

    A related Tolstoy quote is:

    “ The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him"
    Not acceptable Marc. Post a link so we can see where you get your hateful ideas from.

    Stop playing games Marc. You really are not quite as smart as you want, no...need, everyone to think you are.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  13. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc O'Brien View Post
    Gawd, Robo, surely, it is a very heavily discussed topic on the web to google, you should look to learn a little about it...

    .....I might express that another way. The flip side of Monbiot's argument is that God would be an atheist.
    And you might want to stop being so evasive and post links to where you are copying your material from. We know how good you are at copying the thoughts and works of others, we have all read your long winded technical postings.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


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