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Thread: Empty Wallet

  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2009
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    9

    Empty Wallet

    I need help with questions to ask!!

    I recently had a heat pump retrofitted into a 30 year old home(two level, 2300 square feet, new lowE double pain glass, home is leak proofed somewhat) in western Canada. The auxiliarry heat is an 80% modulating gas furnace. The heat pump is a York YZE03611. This system replaced a 30 year old 60% gas furnace.

    Since it has been installed in January my electricity consumption (based on todays rates) from January to April has risen $300 over the last two years. My gas consumption (based on todays rates) for the same time period has dropped only $200 as compared to the last two years.

    I had the heat pump installed as everyone touts it as being more economical!!

    The installer has been back several times to address my concerns over the expense but assures me everything is operating like a Rolex. I took the time to find out what the indicator lights mean on the heat pump control and have found the pump operates in second stage mode (while heating) 95% of the time. Is this the cause for the high electrical consumption?

    Apparently the system is wired correctly (I stood over the installers shoulder and checked it to the wiring diagrams and agree it is correct).

    Any thoughts on the questions I should ask him when he returns next week. I am to the point of setting up a bedroom for him he is here so often.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Lancaster PA
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    67,721
    What CFM is the furnace set to for heat pump operation.
    Did he check and verify what the delivered CFM is.
    What CFM is it moving in first stage, and what CFM is it moving for second stage.
    Are there any air leaks in the ductwork.
    What are the refrigerant pressures and temps reading at the outdoor unit.
    What are the indoor and outdoor temps when he checked the heat pump readings.
    Is hot heat pump mode enabled.
    What is the lock out temp set at.
    Was the heat pump sizec for the heating or cooling load.



    What thermostat do you have?
    Which model mod furnace do you have, multispeed blower, or VS blower?
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  3. #3
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    wash dc metro area
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    78
    Quote Originally Posted by Heetpump View Post
    I need help with questions to ask!!

    I recently had a heat pump retrofitted into a 30 year old home(two level, 2300 square feet, new lowE double pain glass, home is leak proofed somewhat) in western Canada. The auxiliarry heat is an 80% modulating gas furnace. The heat pump is a York YZE03611. This system replaced a 30 year old 60% gas furnace.

    Since it has been installed in January my electricity consumption (based on todays rates) from January to April has risen $300 over the last two years. My gas consumption (based on todays rates) for the same time period has dropped only $200 as compared to the last two years.

    I had the heat pump installed as everyone touts it as being more economical!!

    The installer has been back several times to address my concerns over the expense but assures me everything is operating like a Rolex. I took the time to find out what the indicator lights mean on the heat pump control and have found the pump operates in second stage mode (while heating) 95% of the time. Is this the cause for the high electrical consumption?

    Apparently the system is wired correctly (I stood over the installers shoulder and checked it to the wiring diagrams and agree it is correct).

    Any thoughts on the questions I should ask him when he returns next week. I am to the point of setting up a bedroom for him he is here so often.
    Hopefully your contractor will measure the performance of your system to verify that it is working correctly. The combustion efficency of the furnace is easily measured with a simple oxygen analyzer and the results of a meter clocking. The BTU output of your heat pump is easily measured with a thermometer and a cfm check, of course the BTU output of the heat pump will vary with outdoor temperature but the heat pump mfgr. will have performance charts adjusted for ambient conditions. The balance point between heat pump and fossil fuel should be caculated for your actual energy costs, most contractors set it at 35 or 40.
    You may want to look at the degree day data for your area for the last 3 or 4 years. For many parts of north america we have had much colder weather the last few years and you may be comparing oranges with apples.

    good luck!

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    63
    sounds cold up there,i feel for ya! u will use more eletric with a hp obviousously,is the eletric rate high there? might be cheaper to raise your switch over temp and rely on the modulating furnace in colder weather.the two stages on the hp should save you money on cooling i would expect. first stage heat will only be good for a minor chill, sorry

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Posts
    603
    Around 37 F many heat pumps reach what is called the balance point. At or near this temperature the heat pump needs to run constantly to produce enough heat to maintain a comfortable indoor temperature.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    9
    Quote Originally Posted by beenthere View Post
    What CFM is the furnace set to for heat pump operation.
    Did he check and verify what the delivered CFM is.
    What CFM is it moving in first stage, and what CFM is it moving for second stage.
    Are there any air leaks in the ductwork.
    What are the refrigerant pressures and temps reading at the outdoor unit.
    What are the indoor and outdoor temps when he checked the heat pump readings.
    Is hot heat pump mode enabled.
    What is the lock out temp set at.
    Was the heat pump sizec for the heating or cooling load.



    What thermostat do you have?
    Which model mod furnace do you have, multispeed blower, or VS blower?

    Thermostat - Honeywell TH8000
    Furnace - YorkYP8C080B12MP11A modulating with ECM motor

    The CFM - I don't know. It blows lots of air.
    It doesn't ever operate in stage one. It seems to always be in stage two.
    Hot heat pump is not enabled
    Balance Point and cutout are 35 and 55

    The temperatures here are not cold. Today was 68F during the day and 50F at night.

    Since February the outdoor temperatures (day and night) have been above 32F. Although not by much

    During the really cold spell, 32F during the day and 0F at night, the pump ran constantly on seconde stage and often would turn on the furnace.

    My big concern is that it never runs in stage one.

    Today I set it to cooling and dropped the thermostat to 1F less than the indoor temp. The pump kicked into cooling mode and ran in second stage.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Lancaster PA
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    If lock out is set to 35, the HP shouldn't be running when its below 35.

    They should also be using the YZE's defrost board as the dual fuel control, and not the thermostat.

    Sounds like its wired wrong, and or the thermostat is set up wrong.
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  8. #8
    Join Date
    May 2009
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    9

    AAAIIEEEEE

    ok....the installer came back today. He says the refigerant was 2 lbs. low. It should be 10.5 lbs and was only 8.2.

    Was this the problem??

    He says everything is fine. He recharged the system and ran it in cooling mode. It started out on first stage for about 2 minutes, switched to 2nd stage for about 10 minutes then back to first stage for about 5 minutes then back to second stage. NORMAL???

    He says everything is fine. Even when asked if there is any error codes in memory. I pushed the error button on the furnace before he arrived and saw four red flashes. From research on the web it means high limit switch open. Either dirty filter or inadequate return air. Is this what is killing my electric bill or is it the 2 lbs low?

  9. #9
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Dry as a bone Tucson
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    4,195

    dual fuel

    1. You should have an outdoor sensor hooked up to your stat so it can switch correctly between the furnace and or heat pump.

    2. Your contractor should have done a load calculation on your house and should be able to match your heat pumps capacity to your homes heat loss (balance point) it isn't always 35 or 40 degrees. The ultimate set up is to try to avoid as many defrost cycles as possible.
    Some Talk, Some Do
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  10. #10
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    Jan 2004
    Location
    Lancaster PA
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    On a mild day. It shouldn't have to go to second stage for cooling.
    Since it was switched to cooling, and set to a temp. That is some what a normal cycle. Until the thermostat becomes acustom to the cooling ability of the HP.

    Did he recover the refrigerant charge. Weigh it, and then Weigh in the new charge.
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  11. #11
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    Jan 2004
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    Lancaster PA
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    Quote Originally Posted by ACFIXR View Post
    1. You should have an outdoor sensor hooked up to your stat so it can switch correctly between the furnace and or heat pump.
    Not if they have the defrost board controlling the dual fuel. It has its own outdoor temp sensor.
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  12. #12
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    May 2009
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    9
    Quote Originally Posted by beenthere View Post
    On a mild day. It shouldn't have to go to second stage for cooling.
    Since it was switched to cooling, and set to a temp. That is some what a normal cycle. Until the thermostat becomes acustom to the cooling ability of the HP.

    Did he recover the refrigerant charge. Weigh it, and then Weigh in the new charge.

    Today it is cooling on first stage!

    Yes he recovered and weighed the refigerant then recharged the system hence the specific 8.2 and 10.5 lbs.

    Is the four red flash code on the furnace pertinent?

  13. #13
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    Jan 2004
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    Lancaster PA
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    Its in a memory, that can be reset.

    He should have done that when he was there.
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