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Thread: 9mm or not?

  1. #3888
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    Quote Originally Posted by ;46949
    The 9mm was picked up by the military because it penetrates so well.
    the 9mm was adopted for one reason only. NATO standardization. in fact the 9mm of that era was actually a poor penetrator except in FMJ form. the idea of using it in hopes that it will penetrate one target and continue into the next is simply incorrect. if youd be interested, i can gladly quote conclusions from the FBI ballistics lab.


    In civilian life I would only carry a 9mm if it had a low velocity hollow point bullet because penetration is not what you want.
    i dont know how you arrive at that. without penetration you may as well throw the bullets at the bad guy. shot placement is critical, but the bullet must be able to penetrate to reach the vitals. i also want a hollow point, but i want a very fast and heavy (as possible) one so that it will penetrate adequately. i follow ballistics closely and i have never heard of a COM hit from a +P hollow point that penetrated the target completely. to the contrary, i am aware of many cases where the lack of penetration was the failure that resulted in unnecessary loss of life. FBI agent dove (miami shoot out, 1986) is a perfect example. to quote the FBI:

    "1. Miami Shooting Incident - 4/11/86

    a. ammunition failure - Dove made perfect shot, gun worked perfectly, bullet failed to do what is necessary

    b. had bullet met currently established FBI standards, Platt’s heart would have been penetrated and he
    could have lasted only 30 seconds or so - not the four minutes plus after which he killed Grogan and
    Dove."

    you are indeed correct in that you want 100% of energy deposit in the target, but you can have 100% in a much faster bullet that will penetrate deeper without over-penetrating. in fact, ill go ahead and quote the FBI on this:

    "The fear of over-penetration is a misconception which was created back when law
    enforcement was trying to overcome misinformed public resistance to the use of hollow
    point ammunition. In the process, we began to believe it ourselves. First, our
    lawyers are unaware of any successful legal action resulting from the injury of a
    bystander due to a round over-penetrating the subject. We are aware of numerous
    instances of Agents/officers being killed because their round did not penetrate enough
    (Grogan and Dove, for example). Further, if you examine shooting statistics you will
    see that officers hit the subject somewhere around 20-30% of the time. Thus 70-80%
    of the shots fired never hit their intended target, and nobody ever worries about them -
    only the ones that might “overpenetrate” the bad guy."

  2. #3889
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    Quote Originally Posted by ;48154
    Which Caliber gives the most people the dirt nap?
    there is no magical caliber, or magical bullet in any caliber. its all about probabilities. with proper shot placement from a quality bullet you should be able to expect equal results from any common service caliber (9mm+P, .40, .357 sig, .45acp, etc.). carry is about compromise. for example, many folks compromise caliber/capacity for concealability.

    that said, larger calibers offer a marginal improvement, but it is marginal. if i knew i was going to have to defend my life tomorrow i would carry my hk usp .45 loaded with 230 grain corbon +P jacketed hollow points. that said, the weapon is bulky and uncomfortable for my style of carry. i do not want to be uncomfortable or weighted every day, so i compromise a little. i could carry any of my 1911s quite comfortably, but then im sacrificing capacity and a little reliability as well as ease of use (having to remember to disengage the thumb safety vs. the point and click simplicity of a glock).

    my most often carried defensive weapon is MY M&P .40 which i believe to be dang near perfect. the size isnt to bad for IWB carry, the caliber offers an excellent compromise of power/size and capacity, and the weapon functions completely reliably. in many ways i consider it to be a glock with a proper grip angle.

  3. #3890
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    "be carefull out there"

    now THAT's a funny line.

    is this cowboys'n'indians thing ever going to end?
    or, once a gun-nut - ALWAYS a gun nut?

  4. #3891
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    Quote Originally Posted by tonys View Post
    is this cowboys'n'indians thing ever going to end?
    no. so long as evil exists, good men must stand strong to face it. you cannot legislate evil, nor can you regulate it. you certainly cannot pretend that it doesnt exist and hope that it goes away. you can only resist and overcome through brute force.

    "Why The Gun In Civilization
    By The Munchkin Wrangler


    Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason and force.

    If you want me to do something for you, you have a choice of either convincing me via argument, or force me to do your bidding under threat of force. Every human interaction falls into one of those two categories, without exception. Reason or force, that's it.
    In a truly moral and civilized society, people exclusively interact through persuasion. Force has no place as a valid method of social interaction, and the only thing that removes force from the menu is the personal firearm, as paradoxical as it may sound to some.
    When I carry a gun, you cannot deal with me by force. You have to use reason and try to persuade me, because I have a way to negate your threat or employment of force.

    The gun is the only personal weapon that puts a 100-pound woman on equal footing with a 220-pound mugger, a 75-year old retiree on equal footing with a 19-year old gang banger, and a single gay guy on equal footing with a carload of drunk guys with baseball bats. The gun removes the disparity in physical strength, size, or numbers between a potential attacker and a defender.

    There are plenty of people who consider the gun as the source of bad force equations. These are the people who think that we'd be more civilized if all guns were removed from society, because a firearm makes it easier for a [armed] mugger to do his job. That, of course, is only true if the mugger's potential victims are mostly disarmed either by choice or by legislative fiat-it has no validity when most of a mugger's potential marks are armed.
    People who argue for the banning of arms ask for automatic rule by the young, the strong, and the many, and that's the exact opposite of a civilized society. A mugger, even an armed one, can only make a successful living in a society where the state has granted him a force monopoly.

    Then there's the argument that the gun makes confrontations lethal that otherwise would only result in injury. This argument is fallacious in several ways. Without guns involved, confrontations are won by the physically superior party inflicting overwhelming injury on the loser. People who think that fists, bats, sticks, or stones don't constitute lethal force watch too much TV, where people take beatings and come out of it with a bloody lip at worst. The fact that the gun makes lethal force easier works solely in favor of the weaker defender, not the stronger attacker. If both are armed, the field is level.

    The gun is the only weapon that's as lethal in the hands of an octogenarian as it is in the hands of a weight lifter. It simply wouldn't work as well as a force equalizer if it wasn't both lethal and easily employable.

    When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force.
    It removes force from the equation.and that's why carrying a gun is a civilized act."

  5. #3892
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    Originally Posted by ;44325
    I have had guns pulled on me four times in my young 26 year life. I have had a Knife pulled on me once and I was more freaked out by the knife than the gun. Why would the attacker shoot me? He has the gun I am no threat to him. If I had a gun in any of the four incidents somebody most likely would have died, I walked away alive.
    You would willingly place your life in the hands of someone who has no regard for law, no respect for other people, no desire to conform to social standards and not enough character to avoid endangering others with his own choices???

    What are you, a Democrat?
    TB
    Everyone knows something I don't.

    2 Chronicles 7:14
    14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.

  6. #3893
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    this is about gun-nuts,
    not politics.

    please stay on-topic.

  7. #3894
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    I was just worried that this thread might die and so decided to post on it just to keep it alive.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  8. #3895
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadgerBoiler MN View Post
    I like you Montana. Keep it up!
    i hope you still feel the same way next week sir, as at this point im only through page 9.

  9. #3896
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    I don't agree with too many folks on this site, that being said , I agree with what The Bighorn has said. It appears you've had more than enough firearms training for me to be comfortable around. And I don't say that about too many people. I've trained with our P D's firearms instructor. And yes,stood on the firing line with LEO's. I've taken care of the range A/C for the past eight years. Lots of bennies working there.(Gun wise)

  10. #3897
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    Quote Originally Posted by MontanaBighorn View Post
    "1. Miami Shooting Incident - 4/11/86
    I remember that incedent, and the training video made from it. A lot of lessons were learned from it. The FBI were out gunned, all they had were their shoulder .38's, they wasted time reloading by catching and pocketing their empty shells (just like they all did on the practice range), I believe they had shotguns in the trunk--where they couldnt get to them. Shortly after that all the cops around here were carrying their shotguns right by the steering wheel in their cruisers.
    TB
    Everyone knows something I don't.

    2 Chronicles 7:14
    14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.

  11. #3898
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    I keep my mind on my money,
    and my 'nine on my mind.

  12. #3899
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    Tony, if you ever are in the Houston area ,please look me up. I've got a FREE lifetime membership at my local shooting range.You're invited (by me , free of charge) to shoot as much or as little as you see fit. I'll supply the weapons, ammo , eye & ear protection . This is an open invite to you. Could be you've had a bad experience with guns, but I don't know . You might surprise yourself , then again maybe not. But that's what I bring to the table.

  13. #3900
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    "But that's what I bring to the table."


    wooord.

    I prefer the Benjamin Franklins...

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