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  1. #66
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    Think of it like this:

    A man makes a mistake and breaks the law. He goes to jail. A little while later he is granted parole. There are two conditions: stay out of trouble and report in once a week. If he can do this he'll be granted full release.

    Man broke the law when he ate from the Tree of Knowledge. Christ died on the cross to give us parole. He gave us two conditions: faith and works. If we can do this we'll be granted eternal salvation.
    Preach the Gospel at all times - if necessary, use words. St. Francis of Assisi

  2. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by homersodyssey View Post
    Think of it like this:

    A man makes a mistake and breaks the law. He goes to jail. A little while later he is granted parole. There are two conditions: stay out of trouble and report in once a week. If he can do this he'll be granted full release.

    Man broke the law when he ate from the Tree of Knowledge. Christ died on the cross to give us parole. He gave us two conditions: faith and works. If we can do this we'll be granted eternal salvation.
    Homer,
    How do you explain the Thief on the cross who had no time for good works, baptism, communion ect...Jesus told him "TODAY you will be with me in Paradise".

    I would pick Christ's words over missing heaven due to ancient church doctrine/tradition. This is what caused Martin Luther to risk his life.
    A good book to read is Trail of Blood which deals with the bloody divide over faith and works throughout history.

  3. #68
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    Well, hopefully we don't get into a blood fight over this JR. To me faith alone seems like we're taking Christ's sacrifice for granted. He died for our sins so we can enter heaven, shouldn't we try to live without sin to show our gratitude at least?

    The thief on the cross was dying next to Christ. Right place, right time relatively speaking. If Christ made an exception for him that's His business. Christ left His word many times saying faith AND works are necessary for salvation. Maybe the thief was an exception; I'm just not willing to gamble that it's the rule when scripture is so clear that it's not.

    Of course then there's the issue of Christ not going directly to heaven after He died on the cross. He didn't actually go to heaven for another forty days or so. Where was the thief during this time?

    --------------------------------

    I heard an Evangelical radio minister say "the prisoner on the cross beside Jesus did nothing to get into heaven and could do nothing because he was dying on a cross." (Lk 23:43) However, this prisoner turned to the other prisoner on the cross and proclaimed that Jesus was the blameless one. (Lk. 23:41) I think this was an act of evangelization. At that moment he preached the Gospel. When the thief publicly asked Jesus to save him, he evangelized the crowd that was watching. HIs words are part of the Bible and this thief helped alter the course of humanity for all time. These all seem like good works to me, better than anything I'll ever do.

    http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/faith_vs_works.htm



    Faith and Works

    There is perhaps no greater confusion among Roman Catholic Christians and Evangelical Protestant and Pentecostal Christians than that held over the controversy of faith versus good works. This controversy best warrants the balance of scriptures necessary in reading the Word of God to understand what God means for us to know.

    The Bible is clear that faith holds a first and prominent role in the salvation of every person.

    Heb 10:38
    But my just one shall live by faith ...

    Heb 11:6
    But without faith it is impossible to please him (God) ...

    The Bible is equally clear on the saving role of good works in the lives of the faithful.


    1 Pet 2:12
    Maintain good conduct among the Gentiles, so that if they speak of you as evildoers, they may observe your good works and glorify God on the day of visitation.

    Rev 2:2
    I know your works, your labor, and your endurance ...

    Mt 5:16
    Just so, your light must shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your heavenly Father.

    Mt 16:27
    For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father's glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct.

    Mt 25:34-36
    Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.'

    The Bible makes it clear that there must be a balanced relationship between our faith and its expression in good works.


    James 2:14-18
    What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.

    1 Cor 15:58
    Therefore, my beloved brothers, be firm, steadfast, always fully devoted to the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain.

    Heb 6:10
    For God is not unjust so as to overlook your work and the love you have demonstrated for his name by having served and continuing to serve the holy ones.

    James 2:20-22
    Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.

    Mt 16:27
    For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father's glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct.

    1 Cor 3:8
    The one who plants and the one who waters are equal, and each will receive wages in proportion to his labor.

    Col 3:23-24
    Whatever you do, do from the heart, as for the Lord and not for others, knowing that you will receive from the Lord the due payment of the inheritance.

    The Bible indicates that it is wrong to disturb the balance of works expressing a life of faith. Man is not saved by faith alone.


    James 2:24
    See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

    James 2:26
    For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
    Nor is man saved by works alone.

    Rom 9:31-32
    Israel, who pursued the law of righteousness, did not attain to that law ... because they did it not by faith, but as if it could be done by works.

    Gal 3:11
    And that no one is justified before God by the law is clear, for "the one who is righteous by faith will live."

    The Bible declares that salvation is a gift of God alone and constantly reaffirms that faith has a primary role in that salvation.


    Eph 2:8-9
    For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so no one may boast.

    Heb 6:1
    Therefore, let us leave behind the basic teaching about Christ and advance to maturity, without laying the foundation all over again: repentance from dead works and faith in God,

    Heb 9:14
    ... how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from dead works to worship the living God.

    2 Tim 1:9
    He saved us and called us to a holy life, not according to our works but according to his own design and the grace bestowed on us in Christ Jesus before time began,

    Titus 3:4-5
    ... the kindness and generous love of God our savior appeared, not because of any righteous deeds we had done but because of his mercy.

    Rom 3:27-28
    What occasion is there then for boasting? It is ruled out. On what principle, that of works? No, rather on the principle of faith. For we consider that a person is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

    Gal 2:16
    (We) know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

    http://www.catholicapologetics.org/ap020800.htm
    Preach the Gospel at all times - if necessary, use words. St. Francis of Assisi

  4. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by homersodyssey View Post
    Indeed!

    If faith alone gets you into heaven then great. The Catholic doctrine of faith and works contains your single component of salvation. I understand why Luther's crowd created the faith alone doctrine as it was necessary to build a religion outside the Church. If you admitted to needing the Church for salvation then who would join a religion outside of it? To me scripture is clear on this subject; your interpretations are necessary for your choice of spiritual path. I hope you're right.
    Faith doe not get you salvation. We are saved by GRACE through faith. Grace is the offer of the free gift. Faith is the reception of that gift. See Eph. 2:8-9 "For it is by grace that you have been saved through faith - and this not of yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast." That's pretty clear Homer. Another passage says "your works are as filthy rags". The word which is translated filthy rags is the word for what we would call feminine napkins. (You can do your own research on the Scriptural implication of that.)

    But ANY work we do is garbage compared to the finished work of Christ on the cross and really not worthy to even be held up near the same level as His sacrifice. Scripture also says that if works were part of the equation, Christ died for nothing. He could have just come down from Heaven, showed us how to live, and then reascended, leaving us to our own devices.

    Grace alone though faith alone in Christ alone.
    No reserve. No retreat. No regrets.

    For those who have fought for it, freedom has a sweetness the protected will never know.

    http://www.airwarvietnam.com/16thSOSGunners2.jpg

    Proud member of KA Club

  5. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by bootlen View Post
    Faith doe not get you salvation. We are saved by GRACE through faith. Grace is the offer of the free gift. Faith is the reception of that gift. See Eph. 2:8-9 "For it is by grace that you have been saved through faith - and this not of yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast." That's pretty clear Homer. Another passage says "your works are as filthy rags". The word which is translated filthy rags is the word for what we would call feminine napkins. (You can do your own research on the Scriptural implication of that.)

    But ANY work we do is garbage compared to the finished work of Christ on the cross and really not worthy to even be held up near the same level as His sacrifice. Scripture also says that if works were part of the equation, Christ died for nothing. He could have just come down from Heaven, showed us how to live, and then reascended, leaving us to our own devices.

    Grace alone though faith alone in Christ alone.
    Respectully Boot, no it's not clear to me. I understand the concept of God's grace but not in the context you're using it. We are still back to the original question of consequence. Faith alone or grace through faith still seems like sin is inconsequential. In your argument, as long as we believe in Christ as our Lord and Saviour we go to heaven. We can break all the Commandments as many times as we want, we still go to heaven just don't get many crowns.

    To me, that would mean Christ died for nothing. His sacrifice would be in vain if we were to take it so casually, as if for granted. It would be like saying, "Thanks for dying for us Christ, you certainly proved yourself to be God. Now I'm going to continue on my sinful ways and expect to see you in heaven." Wouldn't Christ wonder what all his suffering was for if that's how we treated it?

    Scripture does not say if works are a part of salvation Christ died for nothing. I've listed several passages that say the opposite.

    Isaiah 64 contains the "filthy rags" verse. Admittedly, I don't know the Old Testament well, but to me this passage supports my view.

    "While you wrought awesome deeds we could not hope for,
    such as they had not heard of from old.
    No ear has ever heard you, no eye ever seen,
    any God but you
    doing such deeds for those who wait for him.
    Would that you might meet us doing right,
    that we were mindful of you in our ways!
    Behold, you are angry, and we are sinful;
    all of us have become like unclean men,
    all our good deeds are like filthy rags;
    We have withered like leaves,
    and our guilt carries us away like the wind."



    They were sinful and made God angry. They were unclean which cancelled out their good deeds. To me this is proof for the sacrament of confession. If you have sins against you even your good deeds won't matter. There are consequences to sin. They could cause you to wither and be blown away in the wind. To me that's hell, Boots. But Christ died on the cross so that our sins may be forgiven. He told us to confess our sins and He would grant us forgiveness. May God bless you.

    "Jesus said to them again, 'Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.' And when He had said this , he breathed on them and said, 'Receive the Holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven, and whose sins you retain are retained.'" John 20: 21-24
    Preach the Gospel at all times - if necessary, use words. St. Francis of Assisi

  6. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by homersodyssey View Post
    Respectully Boot, no it's not clear to me. I understand the concept of God's grace but not in the context you're using it. We are still back to the original question of consequence. Faith alone or grace through faith still seems like sin is inconsequential. In your argument, as long as we believe in Christ as our Lord and Saviour we go to heaven. We can break all the Commandments as many times as we want, we still go to heaven just don't get many crowns.

    To me, that would mean Christ died for nothing. His sacrifice would be in vain if we were to take it so casually, as if for granted. It would be like saying, "Thanks for dying for us Christ, you certainly proved yourself to be God. Now I'm going to continue on my sinful ways and expect to see you in heaven." Wouldn't Christ wonder what all his suffering was for if that's how we treated it?

    Scripture does not say if works are a part of salvation Christ died for nothing. I've listed several passages that say the opposite.

    Isaiah 64 contains the "filthy rags" verse. Admittedly, I don't know the Old Testament well, but to me this passage supports my view.

    "While you wrought awesome deeds we could not hope for,
    such as they had not heard of from old.
    No ear has ever heard you, no eye ever seen,
    any God but you
    doing such deeds for those who wait for him.
    Would that you might meet us doing right,
    that we were mindful of you in our ways!
    Behold, you are angry, and we are sinful;
    all of us have become like unclean men,
    all our good deeds are like filthy rags;
    We have withered like leaves,
    and our guilt carries us away like the wind."



    They were sinful and made God angry. They were unclean which cancelled out their good deeds. To me this is proof for the sacrament of confession. If you have sins against you even your good deeds won't matter. There are consequences to sin. They could cause you to wither and be blown away in the wind. To me that's hell, Boots. But Christ died on the cross so that our sins may be forgiven. He told us to confess our sins and He would grant us forgiveness. May God bless you.

    "Jesus said to them again, 'Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.' And when He had said this , he breathed on them and said, 'Receive the Holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven, and whose sins you retain are retained.'" John 20: 21-24
    Paul addressed that very issue in Romans. "Where sin abounds, grace abounds all the more. Does that mean we should sin so that grace may abound all the more? May it NEVER BE!"

    He goes on to explain in that chapter. I think it's chapter 6 but could be wrong.

    And if any sect has the corner on okay, I;'m square, now I can sin more, it's RCC. Ever gotten drunk with a RCC priest? I have. But it was okay. He attended confession the next day. So don't even go down that trail.

    When one understands fully what salvation is about, one does his level best to please Holy God.

    Got a ball game to go to .

    Peace out.
    No reserve. No retreat. No regrets.

    For those who have fought for it, freedom has a sweetness the protected will never know.

    http://www.airwarvietnam.com/16thSOSGunners2.jpg

    Proud member of KA Club

  7. #72
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    The sacrament of confession doesn't exist so we can sin all we like without consequence. That's a common misconception. How do you account for John 20: 21 then?

    Have a good time at the ball game. I'm going to my first Blue Jays game in a long time on Saturday. My brother-in-law wants his son's first baseball game to be with the other males in the tribe.
    Preach the Gospel at all times - if necessary, use words. St. Francis of Assisi

  8. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by homersodyssey View Post
    Indeed!

    If faith alone gets you into heaven then great. The Catholic doctrine of faith and works contains your single component of salvation. I understand why Luther's crowd created the faith alone doctrine as it was necessary to build a religion outside the Church. If you admitted to needing the Church for salvation then who would join a religion outside of it? To me scripture is clear on this subject; your interpretations are necessary for your choice of spiritual path. I hope you're right.
    Luther was wrong.
    His doctrine concerning Faith (salvation) by justification is wrong.
    Now let's go on to other matters.

  9. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by homersodyssey View Post
    Abraham is in the Old Testament. Christ our Saviour is the New - the Good News. I'm not gambling with my salvation and hoping Christ makes an exception for me as I'm dying. Faith And Works, not one or the other, both like scripture says.
    Abraham was saved just as we are today: Faith and Repentance. The only difference; we have seen Christ (in a manner of speaking) and the old testament folks have looked to the future for the Holy One of God as their Redeemer.

  10. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by homersodyssey View Post
    Think of it like this:

    A man makes a mistake and breaks the law. He goes to jail. A little while later he is granted parole. There are two conditions: stay out of trouble and report in once a week. If he can do this he'll be granted full release.

    Man broke the law when he ate from the Tree of Knowledge. Christ died on the cross to give us parole. He gave us two conditions: faith and works. If we can do this we'll be granted eternal salvation.
    The Bible teaches eternal security, not probation security!

  11. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by bootlen View Post
    Ever gotten drunk with a RCC priest? I have. But it was okay. He attended confession the next day. So don't even go down that trail.
    Ok, wait...you got drunk with a priest once therefore the sacrament of confession is invalid? Boot, we can disagree but I expect more from you. Maybe you've been reading too many of Zach's posts.

    arc, what is faith and repentance? Isn't repentance an act?
    Preach the Gospel at all times - if necessary, use words. St. Francis of Assisi

  12. #77
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    Regarding eternal security

    Eternal Life is not eternal if it can be lost. Those of us who have salvation in Christ are as secure as he is secure. In addition, we are "sealed" in our position by the Holy Spirit himself.

    There is more but this is sufficient evidence for eternal security for me.

  13. #78
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    The sacrament of confession doesn't exist so we can sin all we like without consequence. That's a common misconception. How do you account for John 20: 21 then?



    Better explain that to a bunch of my RCC friends then.

    John 20:21...HUH?! I don't follow. Help me here.

    [b]Have a good time at the ball game. I'm going to my first Blue Jays game in a long time on Saturday. My brother-in-law wants his son's first baseball game to be with the other males in the tribe.[/]

    Thanks. Just a Little league game. My 12 year old just pitched his first game. He just about p'ed his pants. He balked a couple times, gave up 2 runs, then settled down. Pitched 3 innings, 5 k's, the rest got thrown out at first. They took him out to let the next kid pitch his first game. He did okay, too, but the other team got a few hits. Still won 8-5.

    Sorry. Had to throw that in here.
    No reserve. No retreat. No regrets.

    For those who have fought for it, freedom has a sweetness the protected will never know.

    http://www.airwarvietnam.com/16thSOSGunners2.jpg

    Proud member of KA Club

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