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  1. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoBoTeq View Post
    We need to stop being Catholics and Protestants and this one and that one and become Christians seeking the Truth, not religious zealots telling others what we think the truth is.
    Amen to that. Five hundred years is a long protest. Jesus said He is the way, the truth, and the life and we should put our trust in Him.
    Preach the Gospel at all times - if necessary, use words. St. Francis of Assisi

  2. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by TB View Post
    Sure there's a consequence for sin, if there wasn't, God would not be a just God, and the consequence was paid in full on the cross. That's why there is nothing left to do. Those who trust Jesus completely, recieve that full covering He bought and paid for in full.
    Ok, so there are consequences for sin...just nothing left to do. I take that to mean no consequences unless you know of any.
    Preach the Gospel at all times - if necessary, use words. St. Francis of Assisi

  3. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by bootlen View Post
    Lots of judgment to be made. There are different levels of hell and different levels of Heavenly reward. There are several crowns awarded to the faithful.
    Actually, I think you have mentioned this before. I must have forgot, sorry about that. Too bad there isn't a "catechism of boot's interpretation" on the book shelves. So if I get your view of salvation then it goes like this:

    - believe in Jesus Christ and you get into heaven
    - the better the life you lead on Earth the more crowns you get in heaven
    - don't believe in Jesus Christ and you go to hell
    - the worse the life you lead on Earth the deeper into hell you go

    Examples:

    - Timothy McVeith murdered 168 people in the Oaklahoma City bombing, but he believed in Jesus Christ so he's in heaven just without a crown

    - the Dalai Lama spends his life spreading a message of peace and love towards one another, but doesn't believe Jesus Christ is God so he goes to hell just not deeply

    Is this accurate?
    Preach the Gospel at all times - if necessary, use words. St. Francis of Assisi

  4. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by homersodyssey View Post
    Ok, so there is judgement after death. God makes a decision on where we spend eternity: heaven or hell. What is He basing his decision on? It seems Boot's answer is whether we believe in Him or not. On that basis it seems less like a judgement and more a choice. What's there to judge if the criteria is so straight forward?
    Homer,
    Actually WE make the decision on where we will spend eternity [Heaven or the Lake of Fire].

    Those of us who made the right decision [to Trust Christ with our lives] WILL be judged with how faithful we spent our lives. The Believers who spend their life "on the bench" and never share the Gospel/help those in need will receive [through Judgement] less of a reward than those who willingly serve.

    Maybe the "slouches" will get a condo instead of a Mansion.

  5. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by homersodyssey View Post
    Actually, I think you have mentioned this before. I must have forgot, sorry about that. Too bad there isn't a "catechism of boot's interpretation" on the book shelves. So if I get your view of salvation then it goes like this:

    - believe in Jesus Christ and you get into heaven
    - the better the life you lead on Earth the more crowns you get in heaven
    - don't believe in Jesus Christ and you go to hell
    - the worse the life you lead on Earth the deeper into hell you go

    Examples:

    - Timothy McVeith murdered 168 people in the Oaklahoma City bombing, but he believed in Jesus Christ so he's in heaven just without a crown

    - the Dalai Lama spends his life spreading a message of peace and love towards one another, but doesn't believe Jesus Christ is God so he goes to hell just not deeply

    Is this accurate?
    Didn't know that about McVeigh. But if he accepted Christ as Savior, then you summed it up. But it's not what I say...it's what God says in Scripture. It's all right there to read.
    No reserve. No retreat. No regrets.

    For those who have fought for it, freedom has a sweetness the protected will never know.

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  6. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by homersodyssey View Post
    Actually, I think you have mentioned this before. I must have forgot, sorry about that. Too bad there isn't a "catechism of boot's interpretation" on the book shelves. So if I get your view of salvation then it goes like this:

    - believe in Jesus Christ and you get into heaven
    - the better the life you lead on Earth the more crowns you get in heaven
    - don't believe in Jesus Christ and you go to hell
    - the worse the life you lead on Earth the deeper into hell you go

    Examples:

    - Timothy McVeith murdered 168 people in the Oaklahoma City bombing, but he believed in Jesus Christ so he's in heaven just without a crown

    - the Dalai Lama spends his life spreading a message of peace and love towards one another, but doesn't believe Jesus Christ is God so he goes to hell just not deeply

    Is this accurate?
    As distasteful as it is to us.... From what I understand is that Jeffery Dalmer, the Homosexual Pedophile serial murderer who ate some of his victims, SUPPOSEDLY repented of his sins through a Prision ministry and accepted Christ. If this is true, Believers will see him in Heaven [probably as dogcatcher]. The Thief on the Cross with Jesus was guaranteed a spot even though his sins carried through to ALMOST the end of his life.

    The sad thing is that there could be Baptist Preachers and Popes who never repented and Believed who will be in the Lake of Fire forever.

    As for Dalai, Jesus said there was only one way and anyone who tried another way was a thief or a robber....They might look good to us but God sees EVERYTHING.

  7. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by homersodyssey View Post
    Actually, I think you have mentioned this before. I must have forgot, sorry about that. Too bad there isn't a "catechism of boot's interpretation" on the book shelves. So if I get your view of salvation then it goes like this:

    - believe in Jesus Christ and you get into heaven
    - the better the life you lead on Earth the more crowns you get in heaven
    - don't believe in Jesus Christ and you go to hell
    - the worse the life you lead on Earth the deeper into hell you go

    Examples:

    - Timothy McVeith murdered 168 people in the Oaklahoma City bombing, but he believed in Jesus Christ so he's in heaven just without a crown

    - the Dalai Lama spends his life spreading a message of peace and love towards one another, but doesn't believe Jesus Christ is God so he goes to hell just not deeply

    Is this accurate?
    That's a fairly good summation. Glad to see you get it.
    Perhaps you should have read the instructions before calling.

  8. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by JRINJAX View Post
    Homer,
    Actually WE make the decision on where we will spend eternity [Heaven or the Lake of Fire].

    Those of us who made the right decision [to Trust Christ with our lives] WILL be judged with how faithful we spent our lives. The Believers who spend their life "on the bench" and never share the Gospel/help those in need will receive [through Judgement] less of a reward than those who willingly serve.

    Maybe the "slouches" will get a condo instead of a Mansion.
    I posted a link to Matthew 5:1-12, it explains perfectlyhow the decision on where we will spend eternity. Most of you fit the latter

  9. #61
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    Thank you to all who took the time to share your idea of salvation. Prior to joining this site I really didn't have much knowledge of any other religion but my own. Although there is still so much to learn about my own it's been rewarding to gain some insight into others. Actually, this experience has enriched my faith and brightened my spiritual journey.

    There seems to be a distinction made regarding salvation between faith versus works with the battle line being drawn on the word "versus". Another way some look at it is faith or works being the criteria for heavenly reward. The misunderstanding here is that Catholics don't believe it is a matter of one or the other, but both: faith and works. Belief in Christ as our God and Saviour is the prerequisite but it isn't a guarantee for salvation. God gave us free will so we can sin or not. He gave us His only Son to open the gates of heaven so we may enter, but we have to earn our way in. To believe in Christ yet not follow His teachings, to sin against Him or our fellow man does not come without consequences. I believe these consequences are not how many crowns we'll wear, but the location (heaven or hell).


    ---------------------------------------------

    We must act

    "Paul was totally "born again," yet he said "Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel" (1 Cor 9:16) When the Bible says "woe to ..." it means that there is grave danger, including hell. (Mat 11:21, 18:7, 23:13-16, 23-29, 24:19, 26:24, Mk 14:2, Lk 6:24-26, 10:13, 11:42-52, 17:1, 21:23, 22:22, Jud 1:11, Rev 8:13, 9:12, 11:14, 12:12)

    Paul is saying that he must not only believe in the Lord Jesus but he must also do the will of Jesus, which was to preach the Gospel.

    [...]

    What good is it, my brothers if you have faith but do not have works? Can faith save you. If a brother is naked and lacks daily food. If one of you says to them, 'Go in peace, keep warm and eat your fill', and yet you do not supply their bodily needs, what is the good of that? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. (James 2:14-16)

    [...]

    What does the Bible say about "works" and its role in salvation?

    Mat 7:16-20 Not everyone who says to me "Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many deeds of power in your name?' Then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; go away from me, you evil doers.' Everyone then who hears these words of mine and acts on them will be like a wise man who built his house on rock"

    Matt: 19:21 Then someone came to him and said "Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life...[Jesus said] go sell your possessions, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven...When the young man heard this word he went away grieving, for he had many possessions...

    Mat 25:40 When you have done this to the least of my brothers you did it unto me

    Mat 25:40-43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' Then they also will answer, "Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?' Then he will answer them, "Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

    Mt 25:15-28 Check out the parable of the 10 talents.

    2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body.

    Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, the book of life. And the dead were judged according to their works, as recorded in the books. And the sea gave up the dead that were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and all were judged according to what they had done.

    Lk 19:6 "So he (Zacchaeus) hurried down and was happy to welcome him (Jesus) ... 8 Zachaeus stood there and said to the Lord "Look, half of my possessions, Lord, I will give to the poor; and if I have defrauded anyone of anything, I will pay back four times as much." 9 Then Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house"

    Many Evangelicals point to Rom 3:28 "...We are justified by faith apart from the works prescribed by the law." Catholics think it important to look at the entire passage in context. Paul did not only say "...apart from works." He said "...apart from the works prescribed by the law." The word prescribed infers that it was written down. If you asked a Jew back then what the law was, he would say "the Torah" which was the written law (1st five books of the Bible). To me these "works prescribed in the law" such as circumcision seem quite distinct from Christian works of Charity. This is made clearer in the next verse "or is God the God of the Jews only is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also" (Rom 3:29) The next two verses drives this home. "Since God is one; and he will justify the circumcised (Jews) on the ground of their faith and the uncircumcised (Gentiles) through their faith" (Rom 3:30)." It seems that Paul is talking on this circumcision issue and the other trappings of the old Jewish law that were barriers to Gentiles. It seems to have nothing to do with works of Christian Charity.

    Gal 6:2 "Bear one another's burdens and this way you fulfill the law of Christ."

    Gal 6:4 "For all must test their own work."

    1 Cor 9:16 "Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel"

    James 5:20 "you should know that whoever brings back a sinner from wandering will save the sinners soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins"

    James 2:14-16 "What good is it, my brothers if you have faith but do not have works? Can faith save you. If a brother is naked and lacks daily food. If one of you says to them, 'Go in peace, keep warm and eat your fill', and yet you do not supply their bodily needs, what is the good of that? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead."

    James goes on to hammer this home in the next few verses. Most of my protestant friends intuitively know this and they work hard to serve the Lord.

    1 Cor 9:16 "for an obligation is laid on me, and woe to me if I do not proclaim the Gospel" To proclaim the Gospel is an action. This is a work.

    Jer. 17:10; 32:19 God will evaluate every man according to his deeds.


    http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/faith_vs_works.htm

    --------------------------------------------

    However, if indeed I'm wrong on this point (that faith alone guarantees salvation) then let's get together once we're all in heaven and have a group hug...and hopefully a pint.
    Preach the Gospel at all times - if necessary, use words. St. Francis of Assisi

  10. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by homersodyssey View Post
    Thank you to all who took the time to share your idea of salvation. Prior to joining this site I really didn't have much knowledge of any other religion but my own. Although there is still so much to learn about my own it's been rewarding to gain some insight into others. Actually, this experience has enriched my faith and brightened my spiritual journey.
    Hopefully!


    There seems to be a distinction made regarding salvation between faith versus works with the battle line being drawn on the word "versus". Another way some look at it is faith or works being the criteria for heavenly reward. The misunderstanding here is that Catholics don't believe it is a matter of one or the other, but both: faith and works. Belief in Christ as our God and Saviour is the prerequisite but it isn't a guarantee for salvation. God gave us free will so we can sin or not. He gave us His only Son to open the gates of heaven so we may enter, but we have to earn our way in. To believe in Christ yet not follow His teachings, to sin against Him or our fellow man does not come without consequences. I believe these consequences are not how many crowns we'll wear, but the location (heaven or hell).
    Questions to ponder:
    1. Does the Bible teach Eternal Security?
    2. Does God have the Power to keep his children secured (saved)?
    3. When does salvation happened? at a moment or a period of time?

    Answers:
    The Bible teaches eternal security, one's saved, always saved! I don't have time to show some of God's word here now.
    It is God who does the salvation not us. We either repent and believe what God said about His Son or continue in condemnation.
    Salvation happens at a moment; just like being born into this world by the flesh; hence: born-again in the spirit.


    We must act

    "Paul was totally "born again," yet he said "Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel" (1 Cor 9:16) When the Bible says "woe to ..." it means that there is grave danger, including hell. (Mat 11:21, 18:7, 23:13-16, 23-29, 24:19, 26:24, Mk 14:2, Lk 6:24-26, 10:13, 11:42-52, 17:1, 21:23, 22:22, Jud 1:11, Rev 8:13, 9:12, 11:14, 12:12)

    Paul is saying that he must not only believe in the Lord Jesus but he must also do the will of Jesus, which was to preach the Gospel.

    What did Paul call it, I forget, but he said something concerning the will of God for his life after he was saved; yes he was born-again, never to lose it. God called him to preach the gospel to the gentiles; it was a command. So Paul; a man of a zealous character took this command very seriously and therefore would never want to be disaproved of God! Yes a choice; but not a determination for being heavenly bound!

    2Cor 5:17: Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

    All our want to's have change and our minds have now began to look and think differently. This is part of God's santification for his children after their salvation.


    What good is it, my brothers if you have faith but do not have works? Can faith save you. If a brother is naked and lacks daily food. If one of you says to them, 'Go in peace, keep warm and eat your fill', and yet you do not supply their bodily needs, what is the good of that? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. (James 2:14-16)
    Let's take verse only.
    James 2:17: Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
    This is not referring to works for salvation. But it is implying of our works after our salvation. Let's prove our salvation by our works. This actually proves who are saved by the works they do or have.


    What does the Bible say about "works" and its role in salvation?

    Mat 7:16-20 Not everyone who says to me "Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many deeds of power in your name?' Then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; go away from me, you evil doers.' Everyone then who hears these words of mine and acts on them will be like a wise man who built his house on rock"
    Here's a very sobering verse!
    The Lord said that he never knew them! For God to say he never knew someone, is like they never ever were in the Family of God or the Kingdom of God!! These folks that the Lord was referring to were never saved to begin with. They were probably misguided, deceived, or imposters; trying to get into heaven.


    Matt: 19:21 Then someone came to him and said "Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life...[Jesus said] go sell your possessions, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven...When the young man heard this word he went away grieving, for he had many possessions...
    He wasn't saved, nor do we ever see or heard that he did. This is a picture of someone trying to be religious and buying his way to heaven!


    Mat 25:40 When you have done this to the least of my brothers you did it unto me

    Mat 25:40-43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' Then they also will answer, "Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?' Then he will answer them, "Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

    Mt 25:15-28 Check out the parable of the 10 talents.
    These are very similar to the "Lord that never knew them" verse.


    2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body.
    1Cor 3:12-17
    12: Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
    13: Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
    14: If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
    15: If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
    16: Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
    17: If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

    That's right. Some of us will receive crowns and some of us will receive hay and stubble!


    Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, the book of life. And the dead were judged according to their works, as recorded in the books. And the sea gave up the dead that were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and all were judged according to what they had done.
    This is the second death. No saved persons will have to go here after you become a child of God!


    Lk 19:6 "So he (Zacchaeus) hurried down and was happy to welcome him (Jesus) ... 8 Zachaeus stood there and said to the Lord "Look, half of my possessions, Lord, I will give to the poor; and if I have defrauded anyone of anything, I will pay back four times as much." 9 Then Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house"
    He was saved! I have no time to tell how that process happened.


    Many Evangelicals point to Rom 3:28 "...We are justified by faith apart from the works prescribed by the law." Catholics think it important to look at the entire passage in context. Paul did not only say "...apart from works." He said "...apart from the works prescribed by the law." The word prescribed infers that it was written down. If you asked a Jew back then what the law was, he would say "the Torah" which was the written law (1st five books of the Bible). To me these "works prescribed in the law" such as circumcision seem quite distinct from Christian works of Charity. This is made clearer in the next verse "or is God the God of the Jews only is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also" (Rom 3:29) The next two verses drives this home. "Since God is one; and he will justify the circumcised (Jews) on the ground of their faith and the uncircumcised (Gentiles) through their faith" (Rom 3:30)." It seems that Paul is talking on this circumcision issue and the other trappings of the old Jewish law that were barriers to Gentiles. It seems to have nothing to do with works of Christian Charity.
    No comment: I'm not a protestant!


    Gal 6:2 "Bear one another's burdens and this way you fulfill the law of Christ."

    Gal 6:4 "For all must test their own work."

    1 Cor 9:16 "Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel"

    James 5:20 "you should know that whoever brings back a sinner from wandering will save the sinners soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins"

    James 2:14-16 "What good is it, my brothers if you have faith but do not have works? Can faith save you. If a brother is naked and lacks daily food. If one of you says to them, 'Go in peace, keep warm and eat your fill', and yet you do not supply their bodily needs, what is the good of that? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead."

    James goes on to hammer this home in the next few verses. Most of my protestant friends intuitively know this and they work hard to serve the Lord.

    1 Cor 9:16 "for an obligation is laid on me, and woe to me if I do not proclaim the Gospel" To proclaim the Gospel is an action. This is a work.

    Jer. 17:10; 32:19 God will evaluate every man according to his deeds.
    Fine!


    However, if indeed I'm wrong on this point (that faith alone guarantees salvation) then let's get together once we're all in heaven and have a group hug...and hopefully a pint.
    It's Faith in Jesus Christ and Repentance towards God!

    Romans 8:1: There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

  11. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by arc8 View Post
    Hopefully!

    Indeed!

    If faith alone gets you into heaven then great. The Catholic doctrine of faith and works contains your single component of salvation. I understand why Luther's crowd created the faith alone doctrine as it was necessary to build a religion outside the Church. If you admitted to needing the Church for salvation then who would join a religion outside of it? To me scripture is clear on this subject; your interpretations are necessary for your choice of spiritual path. I hope you're right.
    Preach the Gospel at all times - if necessary, use words. St. Francis of Assisi

  12. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by homersodyssey View Post
    Indeed!

    If faith alone gets you into heaven then great. The Catholic doctrine of faith and works contains your single component of salvation. I understand why Luther's crowd created the faith alone doctrine as it was necessary to build a religion outside the Church. If you admitted to needing the Church for salvation then who would join a religion outside of it? To me scripture is clear on this subject; your interpretations are necessary for your choice of spiritual path. I hope you're right.
    One important thing to consider is; If you add needing good works to faith, then faith does not save you. Just remember that Abraham "Believed God and was justified righteous". It di not mention any works tha Abraham did, only that Abraham "Believed God" and was justified righteous by doing it.

    If you are adding a necessity for good works to the attaining of salvation, then you have done away with faith. The Bible only states that a Believer should have works that come from his faith or else his faith is useless.

    Just remember that the Thief on the Cross had no time left to practice good works, but he did have repentance and faith from which CHRIST Himself granted Salvation.

  13. #65
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    Abraham is in the Old Testament. Christ our Saviour is the New - the Good News. I'm not gambling with my salvation and hoping Christ makes an exception for me as I'm dying. Faith And Works, not one or the other, both like scripture says.
    Preach the Gospel at all times - if necessary, use words. St. Francis of Assisi

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