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  1. #1
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    CO2(R-744) estimated at 40% higher lifetime carbon footprint than R-22 & F-gases

    It was reported that CO2 uses about 40% more energy compared to F-gas refrigerants in comfort A/C applications. It is suggested that CO2 has a larger carbon footprint in the scheme of things due to the lower EER that results from CO2 refrigerant compared to F-Gas such as R-410A, R-22 and R-407C. **



    "[E]nergy use compared to
    R22 was adjusted for the analysis
    as follows: equivalent usage for
    R407C equipment, 2% less energy
    use for R410A, and a 40% increase
    in energy use for CO2."










































    *According to DuPont Fluorochemicals

    Attachment: R410A and R407C Design and Performance —A Literature Review
    Barbara H. Minor, DuPont Fluoroproducts
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by ICanHas; 09-25-2014 at 07:24 AM.
    Beer can cold bandit stoled my superheat.

  2. #2
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    Are there DX CO2 AC units out there? I've never heard of them. But then again, why would I? What with me being a silly supermarket guy and all.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Sale View Post
    Are there DX CO2 AC units out there? I've never heard of them. But then again, why would I? What with me being a silly supermarket guy and all.
    Not that I know of. The hot side runs about 2,000 psi and the entire system probably has to withstand 1,500 psi or so for standing pressure during off cycles. There's a substantial cost increase in making such a system and if there's no compelling reason to do so, I don't see why they would for already price sensitive residential equipment segment. The paper was published by DuPont Fluorochemicals discussing findings of other research. If it is as what they say, there will be no units made commercially, because it wouldn't pass the 14 SEER mandate.

    There are R-744 reach-in fridges (expensive commercial food service equipment) and refrigeration systems, but I am not certain on their overall COP compared to modern F-gas systems or their lifetime carbon footprint performance. (Oh God. I hate that phrase so much).

    It could very well be that in terms of lifetime operating cost, that CO2 systems can fall behind F-Gas systems.

    It might not have functional advantage anymore than fancier sales floor flooring have over plain backroom flooring, but they pay more per square foot to create the store theme.

    I think the stores that do use CO2 systems are paying to be able to advertise "we don't use F-Gas". Some stores actually leave the "LED, less energy, lasts longer" stickers on the glass.

    Traditionally, refrigeration case refrigerants and lighting have been behind-the-scene thing, but these sort of things are sold as a feature these days. "You’ll also be able to tout your stores’ new “green” approach to refrigeration and attract this growing consumer segment." (HillPhoenix http://www.hillphoenix.com/the-ams-g...lose-the-case/)
    Beer can cold bandit stoled my superheat.

  4. #4
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    Nice! Reminds me of a store that is all about the organic stuff, and save the planet, but runs a 404a DX rack, and every case in the store is open air, either multideck, or tub.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Sale View Post
    Nice! Reminds me of a store that is all about the organic stuff, and save the planet, but runs a 404a DX rack, and every case in the store is open air, either multideck, or tub.
    There are increasing number of people these days who'd pay higher prices for "green". A few Whole Foods locations have CO2 systems and there's no debate that things they sell are higher priced. Sustainable/organic/environment are their theme and people who shop there gladly pay the higher prices.

    Since every grocer has pretty much tapped into the organic market, if one of the mainstream store retrofits to 404A replacement which has 1/2 to 1/3 the GWP and starts advertising "lower carbon foot print" thing, the liberal customer base will pretty much expect the same from other chains.
    Beer can cold bandit stoled my superheat.

  6. #6
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    Yeah, it's about time to start learning CO2, we have a Walmart about an hour south that uses it, and they are building one in town here that will be glycol MT and CO2 LT.

  7. #7
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    Google co2 compressors and check out Copeland. It appears to mainly be in med and low temp systems but I didn't look farther.
    We do have to have a critical eye when it comes to DuPont. When Co2 is estimated to be $1/lb DuPont has a lot to loose.

    Retail grocers know better then to use confusion to educate. By that I mean don't introduce information that will make the consumer puke. If the public doesn't understand, shut up. If there is a corporate effort to go to this refrigerant it will have to make economic sense in terms of energy or possible unforeseen Government regs and forget carbon footprints. There are enough ways to play defensive dodge ball. They only do what makes sense to their stock holders.

    Plus they don't need to. There is plenty of interest in organics to just push the product. The takeoff of farmers markets in the last ten years shows their success and they don't need no stinking refrigeration.
    Tracers work both ways.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by hvacker View Post
    Google co2 compressors and check out Copeland. It appears to mainly be in med and low temp systems but I didn't look farther.
    In current commercial production, yep. Sanyo has/had commercially made CO2 heat pump water heater.

    We do have to have a critical eye when it comes to DuPont. When Co2 is estimated to be $1/lb DuPont has a lot to loose.
    Yeah. CO2 has been around for a long time, but haven't really been used, because it actually is difficult to use. If it had the thermal and pressure range properties of ammonia without the toxicity, I think it would have been in wide use long ago. CO2 appears to be better suited for lower condensing ambient temperature.

    Retail grocers know better then to use confusion to educate. By that I mean don't introduce information that will make the consumer puke. If the public doesn't understand, shut up.
    These days, consumer have surprising preferences. Carbon footprint doesn't even begin to describe environmental issues in general, but that's what appears to be the hip thing now. Normally refrigerant type didn't belong on anywhere other than the rating plate out of sight from the public. Look at Ben & Jerry's freezer using R290 or something. I'm pretty sure they were thinking more about being able to say "climate friendly" conspicuously, additional attention the product receives and the revenue that comes with it than actual kWh/day compared to R22 or if there's really such a thing as global warning.



    Retailers spend a lot of money trying to understand what they want. What I'm saying is that things that certain projects are not cut and dry behind-the-scene expenses. Environment/Sustainable appears to be an actual part of store's theme which creates an overlap between facilities and presentation/marketing costs.

    Have you noticed that many display cases are designed to make LED lighting noticeable? Target has them on a motion detector set on a very short cycle so that they come on when you approach them and the section you passed just seconds ago turns off. From cost perspective, I doubt there's much difference in energy use from having the timer set to something that turns them off when there's little traffic, but not so short that people notice them shutting off.

    I think its very deliberate to draw attention to get customers to NOTICE their "energy conservation" efforts.



    They only do what makes sense to their stock holders.
    You'll find that a lot of renovated Wal-Mart looks like this and they use different flooring for different sections. I doubt the government told them to spend more money on multi-patterned floor instead of using plain single pattern like the before.


    There's really no doubt that finishing cost for sectioned decorative flooring cost more than plain floor like this that they have in the warehouse, yet you'd be hard pressed to justify the added cost of the upgraded flooring using the ROI model. In the past many Walmart did have plain single pattern flooring even though it was a notch fancier than plain cement.
    Beer can cold bandit stoled my superheat.

  9. #9
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    Plain cement was a good sell when big box started as it gave the appearance of the lowest prices because were not fancy and were bare bones so we can save you bucks. Times change. Now citizens want the savings but also want to feel a bit classy. I wonder what Cosco will do. In appearances it's has become that everything seems to matter. There is probably a degree offered just for that.
    I don't shop Walmart for other reasons but once when I couldn't get a prescription filled anywhere else I went there late one night and was really surprised how bright and clean looking the store was. Impressive.

    In the hvac trade it was once okay to arrive in jeans and a t shirt with a bucket of tools and not think twice. Not so good today. Many people think how you look is how you work.

    I once knew a grocery manager that told me the store is designed to move customers past perishables like produce first, then to the meat area, and then the isles. He also told me the highest markup was in products with a long shelf life like pickles. He would get an offer to pay for a full page add in the paper if he would buy a box car of corn flakes. He said sure. Corn flakes sell like crazy and a full add is $$. Interesting.
    So much is planned for effect.

    Ben and Jerry had a captive audience of a particular bent. There something like a refrigerant might cause those people to think they are saving the world by eating ice cream. I don't give it a thought although I like their products.
    Tracers work both ways.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by hvacker View Post
    Plain cement was a good sell when big box started as it gave the appearance of the lowest prices because were not fancy and were bare bones so we can save you bucks. Times change. Now citizens want the savings but also want to feel a bit classy.
    So, now do you get my point about the whole carbon footprint/eco thing? It isn't the expenses vs savings, but it's a marketing fashion investment with the hope making ROI by drawing in the increasing "green" sub-culture. They want to feel they're saving the environment by shopping at places that's perceived as ecologically sound... and to those people you're apparently judged as unfashionable just as shopping at walmart put you in the low class stereotype.
    Beer can cold bandit stoled my superheat.

  11. #11
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    If, like you say the green culture is in fact growing. Some very loud voices I here have contempt for the "Green Revolution"."Nobody is going to tell me what to eat!" Like the contempt for the silvery minnow or the spotted owl. Sure that can work with some shoppers but what about the Limpball crowd. For them anything is a liberal plot. Regardless of the validity of data it becomes politicized and remarkably invalid at the same time.
    Some will be drawn to these marketing tools and some will react.
    A possible reaction might be two groceries here in town that I don't think there is a liberal in sight. Known just by their adds. Will playing to a limited audience pay off. It doesn't in politics as a politician still needs to capture part of the middle 10%.
    Even though we have no way of knowing just how a corporate entity thinks we could list various corporates and conclude most are conservative leaning. The nature of business.
    So wouldn't you think the corporates would need to tread cautiously for fear of being categorized as a vile and contemptible anti-American liberal commie socialist hippy freak??(thanks Glen) I'm sure you get my joke.
    Of course corporates have their ear to the ground and will become whatever profits them most. After all it's their survival at stake. Still few want to be identified as an ecoterrorist. (Maybe Google)
    Tracers work both ways.

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