$900 Electric Bill?!

[adt2]

I am going to be brief, because I have a lot of information to pass along. Bear with me.

4216sf 1 story home built 2 years ago (I am the builder)
Bio-base foam insulation throughout
Unvented, conditioned attic space (insulation on underside of roof deck)
Vinyl low-e windows, insulated doors, etc.
Two (2) 5-ton Amana Heat Pump units
Programmable T-stats set on 82 during the day, 74 overnight
Last month's bill - $688 (approx. 3900 KWH)
Prior month's bill - $461 (approx. 3000 KWH)
Two April Aire dehumidifiers
High bill - generally August / September - $900 +/- $50
No pool, no outbuildings, CF bulbs everywhere, on-demand water heaters

Recently had an energy audit performed. Was told I had one of the tightest houses they'd ever measured in the Houston area; somewhere in the neighborhood of 14% leakage. I went through the house with them with the FLIR camera; no hotspots. Duct leakage on the order of 10% on each system, but it's leaking into conditioned attic space, so I figure that's a wash. Basically beat the pants off the local Energy-Star homes.

Only thing we could figure is the HVAC system is WAY oversized. I had an analysis done prior to building the home, gave to the A/C contractor, they used it for toilet paper or something. I have since gone back and found that analysis and deciphered it, and it appears to show that I need 6.5 tons MAX. I purchased HVAC Calc prior to building, and spent a long time inputting all the correct information. It said I needed something like 4 tons total.

Unfortunately, I caved to the contractor at build-time, assuming he knew more than I did (mistake, apparently). So now, I can't keep the house dry (60% RH or higher, with two dehumidifiers running full-blast), the units short-cycle all day and night, and my utility bills are freaking ridiculous. We are about to pull the trigger on two new 3-ton units (or maybe two 2.5-ton units), and my question is this:

Where can I get some kind of idea what kind of energy savings I can expect? I mean, if two 5-ton 13-seer units are, say, $500/month, what are two 3-ton 14-seer units going to cost? Or two 3-ton 16-seer units? I've googled this, but I can't find a calculator that does what I want.

[nites chaos]

you might want to try the ARI website at http://www.ari.org
It might not give you exactly what your looking for but will give you a estimate. You can choose from most every manuf. and most any model...

[beenthere]

Dude, you were hosed.

http://www.hvacopcost.com/

There are several Houston area contractors on this board.
One of them may be able to get you fixed up right.

[Shark207]

I am going to be brief, because I have a lot of information to pass along. Bear with me.

4216sf 1 story home built 2 years ago (I am the builder)
Bio-base foam insulation throughout
Unvented, conditioned attic space (insulation on underside of roof deck)
Vinyl low-e windows, insulated doors, etc.
Two (2) 5-ton Amana Heat Pump units
Programmable T-stats set on 82 during the day, 74 overnight
Last month's bill - $688 (approx. 3900 KWH)
Prior month's bill - $461 (approx. 3000 KWH)
Two April Aire dehumidifiers
High bill - generally August / September - $900 +/- $50
No pool, no outbuildings, CF bulbs everywhere, on-demand water heaters

Recently had an energy audit performed. Was told I had one of the tightest houses they'd ever measured in the Houston area; somewhere in the neighborhood of 14% leakage. I went through the house with them with the FLIR camera; no hotspots. Duct leakage on the order of 10% on each system, but it's leaking into conditioned attic space, so I figure that's a wash. Basically beat the pants off the local Energy-Star homes.

Only thing we could figure is the HVAC system is WAY oversized. I had an analysis done prior to building the home, gave to the A/C contractor, they used it for toilet paper or something. I have since gone back and found that analysis and deciphered it, and it appears to show that I need 6.5 tons MAX. I purchased HVAC Calc prior to building, and spent a long time inputting all the correct information. It said I needed something like 4 tons total.

Unfortunately, I caved to the contractor at build-time, assuming he knew more than I did (mistake, apparently). So now, I can't keep the house dry (60% RH or higher, with two dehumidifiers running full-blast), the units short-cycle all day and night, and my utility bills are freaking ridiculous. We are about to pull the trigger on two new 3-ton units (or maybe two 2.5-ton units), and my question is this:

Where can I get some kind of idea what kind of energy savings I can expect? I mean, if two 5-ton 13-seer units are, say, $500/month, what are two 3-ton 14-seer units going to cost? Or two 3-ton 16-seer units? I've googled this, but I can't find a calculator that does what I want.

If you tell me how much your utility company charges per kilowatt. What type of unit you are intrested in (brand name, seer rating etc) I can tell you what it will cost to operate per month, under normal operating conditions for your area.

[andserco]

That is a pretty good temperature reset span...

[dash]

10 tons on that home??What were they thinking??

Are you sure you don't have other issues?

Located where,kws used,and electric rates??

[bmathews]

The funny thing is that even if you use the "rule of thumb" method of sizing. It's still 2 tons too big. What was the guy thinking?

[Poodle Head Mikey]

I used to live in Houston.

I now live in a 3900 square foot house in southern NJ. South Jersey has about 1/2 or 2/3 of a Houston Summer every year.

I have six tons of AC in my house (three up and three down) and my bill last month was $364. AND . . . . due to extensive envelope modifications - my two systems are Grossly oversized and endlessly short cycling.

In the near future I will have four tons total (two up and two down) and I expect to get my electric bill to be somewhere near to $200. by so doing.

[adt2]

Answers to a few questions:

Magnolia (about 40 miles north of Houston)
Most recent utility bill was 17.1 cents/kwh
Approximately 3900 kwh used

I am probably going to go back with Amana Heat Pump units. Same vendor as original work, but under new management. They seem genuinely interested in making things right. He's offered to let me buy the equipment from his distributor at his cost, and offered to install it at no charge, all with new equipment and labor warranties. I don't get the impression that he's trying to hose me.

Mainly I just want the system to work correctly, cool + dehumidify, and not cost me an arm and a leg.

[nvr2old]

I think I would have someone verify that the heat strips are not on when the a/c is on or just on period.

[udarrell]

4216sf 1 story home built 2 years ago.
Last month's bill - $688 (approx. 3900 KWH)

To me, that is unbelievable.
You have to believe in your heat-gain calc.

Where there is a fair SIZED humidity load, I would rather have my A/Cs a little undersized, & NEVER oversized.

I would make the NECESSARY CHANGES & figure out a way to recoup, as much as possible, the oversized equipment costs.

When you replace that equipment, be extra careful that you do not replace it with yet oversized equipment!

I have an old 1937 average insulated all electric farm home, except for oil heat, I cool it all through the summer for an average $40.00 to $45.00 dollar a month electric bill. View my farm home & read how it is done.

http://www.udarrell.com/aircondition..._charting.html

A half-ton 9.7-EER room A/C cools the entire first floor, just under a HALF-TON 7-EER COOLS UPSTAIRS bedroom, hallway, stairwell & bathroom; yes, it is true; under a Ton of total cooling.

The oil heating in the winter is my big expense!
- Darrell - HVAC RETIRED

[comfortdoc]

I would consider higher efficiency 2 stg units and take advantage of the dehumidify options to try and reduce the runtimes of the installed dehumidifiers during your peak cooling season. I think the A/C's will operate more economically when sized and installed properly.

[adt2]

Stupid question: What is a heat strip, and how would I verify whether or not it's on?

[gonekuku]

Take a look at this:

http://www.nppd.com/My_Home/Services...calculator.asp

Per: http://www.hvacopcost.com/

Use 2803 Cooling hours for Houston.

For KWH cost, make sure you divide the KWH on your electric bill with the final $. This gives you the true cost per KWH after taxes and fees, fees and fees, because that's what you really care about - Not the KWH cost on your bill.

Your house is not exactly small. Your electric rate sounds much higher than average. Yes, your systems are oversized. I think your bill sounds about right for the info you provided (It doesn't sound like the heat strips are on because the added loss would be double). A single story 4216 sq ft house has a lot of surface area to gain heat with. Replacing two 2 year old systems with smaller systems would probably have a 20+ year return on investment.

I would look at some fancy ductwork to twin the systems to have one system as the primary (with a higher cooling setpoint), and the 2nd system (with a lower cooling setpoint) running on a separate thermostat with large hysteresis to come on when the main system can't maintain it's set point. That's just me. I don't think many HVAC companies would be able to properly re-design and alter your ductwork for this. This wouldn't necessarily yield the greatest comfort for when 5 tons wansn't enough, but the 2nd unit would probably only cycle on and off for 3 hours during the hot season. I'm just thinking out loud.

[sparksandfan]

Yee gads.

10 tons at 13 seer draws about 9231 watts. 30 days at 12 hours a day is 360 hours. That's 3323 kwh at 17 cents for $565.

4 tons at 14 seer, 3428 watts. 30 days, 12 hours, 360 hours. 1234 kwh for $210.

Difficult to know the real run time on your current setup, but short cycling on and off means that moisture is not removed. A lot of the moisture on the coils is vaporized right back into the living space.

How many kwh did you use in march or november?

Heater strip as in aux heat for heat pump.

For sure get another Manual J on the as-built house before selecting new equipment.

[shallowluv]

It would cost but with zone control and the afore mentioned duct re-design you could make this system work. I would see how far the installer is willing to go to help you get straightened out.

[kenny mac]

I am going to be brief, because I have a lot of information to pass along. Bear with me.

4216sf 1 story home built 2 years ago (I am the builder)
Bio-base foam insulation throughout
Unvented, conditioned attic space (insulation on underside of roof deck)
Vinyl low-e windows, insulated doors, etc.
Two (2) 5-ton Amana Heat Pump units
Programmable T-stats set on 82 during the day, 74 overnight
Last month's bill - $688 (approx. 3900 KWH)
Prior month's bill - $461 (approx. 3000 KWH)
Two April Aire dehumidifiers
High bill - generally August / September - $900 +/- $50
No pool, no outbuildings, CF bulbs everywhere, on-demand water heaters

Recently had an energy audit performed. Was told I had one of the tightest houses they'd ever measured in the Houston area; somewhere in the neighborhood of 14% leakage. I went through the house with them with the FLIR camera; no hotspots. Duct leakage on the order of 10% on each system, but it's leaking into conditioned attic space, so I figure that's a wash. Basically beat the pants off the local Energy-Star homes.

Only thing we could figure is the HVAC system is WAY oversized. I had an analysis done prior to building the home, gave to the A/C contractor, they used it for toilet paper or something. I have since gone back and found that analysis and deciphered it, and it appears to show that I need 6.5 tons MAX. I purchased HVAC Calc prior to building, and spent a long time inputting all the correct information. It said I needed something like 4 tons total.

Unfortunately, I caved to the contractor at build-time, assuming he knew more than I did (mistake, apparently). So now, I can't keep the house dry (60% RH or higher, with two dehumidifiers running full-blast), the units short-cycle all day and night, and my utility bills are freaking ridiculous. We are about to pull the trigger on two new 3-ton units (or maybe two 2.5-ton units), and my question is this:

Where can I get some kind of idea what kind of energy savings I can expect? I mean, if two 5-ton 13-seer units are, say, $500/month, what are two 3-ton 14-seer units going to cost? Or two 3-ton 16-seer units? I've googled this, but I can't find a calculator that does what I want.

First of all you didn't cave !!! Your HVAC broke the law!
Our SOS License Board is full of Suspensions and Fines from situations just like yours.
I would suggest you remind him of this before you file a complaint.
If you had a Manual J done and he didn't.... He is in big trouble if you file a complaint.... He will loose his license..

If you don't remind him of this, you than have caved...

I am personally conditioning 12,200 sqft with only 5 Tons $180.00 and month And I have an all foamed home/ roof as yours and my RH avg. 45% at 76*
Next can them dehumidifier... let your HVAC do its job..
Good luck

[slice]

I live 25 miles from Galveston 3500 sq ft 3 tons cooling foam attic and ICF walls. ALL electric 2 hot water heater 3 fridges, hot tub, well pump, septic, kw useage per month averages 2000 kw....... I trusted my HVAC guy that was ME

[paul42]

If you have any circulating pumps for your hot water - turn them off.

The dehumidifiers should not be needed during the summer months.

Make sure any replacement systems have variable speed blowers - and I highly recommend the Honeywell IAQ thermostats.

How is fresh air brought into your house?

[adt2]

No recirc pumps for hot water. I have to run dehumidifiers in summer or the house is like a swamp. Hoping to fix that problem with pending repairs. New units will be variable speed - already made that clear to vendor. I will investigate the t-stats you mention.

Fresh air intake is set to operate 10 minutes per hour, I believe.