Union vs Non Union

[durussel78]

Let me first just say wow, wow as in the job situation in Michigan Sucks!
Been in the trade 14 years, 5 industrial/instit./commercial - 5 Residential - 4 engineering.
Design, Service, Install, and Sales.
Started at the top with a union contractor - great pay, great benefits, awesome hours, would work 7-3:30 for 28.75 an hour- average 40 regular hours per week with maybe 10 hours overtime.
Industrial HVACR.
We could actually pay our bills and afford to eat out "Pizza".
We would have months of prep time for our "On call" consisting of a Sat and Sun. Paid holidays and vacation. You could actually show up for work and know that you had a company that was for your safety. We had an excellent chain of command, no confusion on what you would be doing. Believe it or not it was relaxing going into a hospital to work on a 350# High Pressure Steam Boiler or a 1300 ton chiller.

I am now once again at the bottom.
18.00 an hour
Residential Bul@#@##
No benefits.
Average work day goes from 7 am to whenever 10 - 11 - 12 2 am..... whenever.
Cant plan which bills to pay first becouse hours are so stupid, may work 140 hours one week or 15.
Cant really plan much with the pay and the hours.
You really cant afford to say no to a Saturday or Sunday with the crappy hours you are SUPPOSED to put in during the week?
The company I am with is dictated by one individual who really does not belong in command. Between the A@#@#@# management and rediculous customers I really dont know who I want to smack first.
Our on call is spontanious you may be on call but sitting at home or you may be doing a install and get 900 service calls.

I remember when I was union, and we had respect - order - and where just happy!!

Now I have nothing, you want anything done you better price it, order it, and install it!


I apologize for the gripe I just remember how good I had it to where I am now!!!!!!
Skilled trade unions are really better - and no I am not talking about UAW skilled trades (they are not SKILLED in anything but F#$#$#$#$ up our economy!)

[timebuilder]

If you are despondent now, wait until EFCA. It will be really "EF'd" up.

The only out for an employer who has been "EF'd" will be to close. He won't be allowed to reopen under EFCA, so someone else will open in his place, with everyone as a non-union, entry pay employee.

In the end, EFCA will have created a revolving door of new employers. Only a few actually do well enough to become union shops, and those are commercial service shops.

Get ready for the law or unintended consequences.

[bob mel]

Timebuilder........I guess from your response that you do not like unions. Also that you do not like the idea that employees have some small type of protections on their job. Believe it or not there are some owners that do not treat their employees fairly.

[timebuilder]

Timebuilder........I guess from your response that you do not like unions. Also that you do not like the idea that employees have some small type of protections on their job. Believe it or not there are some owners that do not treat their employees fairly.

Guess again.

I have been a member of three unions. I have a LOT of experience.

I like the idea of employees having protections on the job. Safety shoes, hard hats, etc. Most employers cannot operate under a contract situation, because their work does not lend itself to that kind of structure.

Yep. There are some employers who do not treat their employees fairly. EFCA will most assuredly NOT change that. It will cause most of the companies that experience it to either go out of business immediately, or to suffer a decline that forces the closure later.

Either way, people that had a job will lose that job. But hey, there was a union that collected some dues before the doors closed, right?

[fallguy]

What happened with the union thing? Did you get laid-off? I am thinking of joining one myself as an apprentice. With all that exprience you have why don't you go out on your own? I know with the economy the way it is it might not be the best time but with 14 years under your belt you should do fine.
BTW what is EFCA? Is it a government thing?

[timebuilder]

What happened with the union thing? Did you get laid-off? I am thinking of joining one myself as an apprentice. With all that exprience you have why don't you go out on your own? I know with the economy the way it is it might not be the best time but with 14 years under your belt you should do fine

I agree.

Getting into an apprentice program is a good idea. The existing companies that are union outfits have shown that they can operate that way in the current environment. It's the ones that are not yet union and will become so under EFCA that are at risk of failure.

[allstar08]

I worked non union for so many years, and was always told they were the evil empire. Then I got burnt out on the weird hours and lack of pay and bennies, so I joined the union. Wow what a difference, I couldn't be happier. There are people PO'd on both sides of the fence, but unions have given the skilled trades so much. If not for the unions your work week would be longer as well as the days......well we all know how this story goes. Good luck I hope you find your way out of the residential abyss.

[neophytes serendipity]

Is $18 an hour the "bottom" of your non-union pay scale? That number is a few dollars higher than many places that advertise for the same type of work in my neck of the woods.

[durussel78]

18 bucks an hour is mid to high, our non union shop tops out at 23 an hour.
I would love to strike out on my own, but I cant chance it in this crappy economy with two little ones at home.

Actually the only chance my family has of survival is my wife.
If she can get in as a principal of a school than we would be rocking.
Right now we pull benefits through her, and her union. Her unions health insurance covers everything.

If you can get in an apprenticeship under the union - hook it up!!!!!!!!!!!
The union cant really treat you wrong and this is coming from someone who has seen both sides of the fence!
Whats the worst that could happen under a apprenticeship - you get laid off, hell it beets being fired for having your shoes untied or standing up for safety concerns.

I was only griping becouse in every non union shop someone usually holds all of the power and with that makes all of the decisions - didnt hitler do that?

And from what I have seen in every union shop I have been at decisions are based on several peoples decisions and code / safety compliance!!!

GO UNION

[temco]

Question to OP. Why are you not working for the union shop with the hours, pay, benefits, etc? Why hasnt the union hall put you back to work with another shop?

[allstar08]

Is $18 an hour the "bottom" of your non-union pay scale? That number is a few dollars higher than many places that advertise for the same type of work in my neck of the woods.

Time to move the the money!

Even with it being residential, those are 1994 dollars

[ascj]

I make more per hour then union wages, but less benifits. The reason I stay non-union, is because if I were union I would be laided off right now. I'm at the top of the totem pole, because I work hard, bring in the business, and have a good attitude. Our company has alot of lay offs right now and most of them have more tenure then I do. I like being recognized by my actions and not by a list or tenure.

And yes I have worked for both.

[viceman]

I make more per hour then union wages, but less benifits. The reason I stay non-union, is because if I were union I would be laided off right now. I'm at the top of the totem pole, because I work hard, bring in the business, and have a good attitude. Our company has alot of lay offs right now and most of them have more tenure then I do. I like being recognized by my actions and not by a list or tenure.

And yes I have worked for both.

layoffs are always a concern. i remember the last time i was laid off. not a good feeling. then again it was 1992 so i have managed to get over it.

[fallguy]

Begining in a union doesnt mean you are the 1st to get laid off? Does it? I as well as a few million americans arent in a union and we got laid off

[Dowadudda]

I would like to know who you are? Were you UA 636? What happened?

[coolestacman]

well here we go again about this union non-union thing

i noticed that the efca was mentioned, it is about time that you guys get more protection for those that would like to unionize.

I live in Ontario and we have the Labour Relations Act that protect the workers choice, even though there are some changes that could be made it has worked.

As for the question should you go UNION i myself find it very easy there is only one answer and that is to be Union. Union members usually have better benefits better pay better working conditions and so on.

one thing that is not mentioned is in our discussions over the Union or non-union issue is that most employers belong to what are known as employer organizations in Canada they are HRAI, Open shop contractors, the electrical league, I could go on and on with the list of associations. These organizations are there for the employer and they guide the employer in all aspects of the business this includes the task of how to deal with employees.
So in reality they are a form of union for the employer, interesting how an employer tells you haw bad it is to stick together but yet they do it themselves with their competitors.

So i think you guys should really look at what you doing and accept the fact that if you are a worker you are in the same boat as all the other workers and even though we like to see our employers succeed there should be fair compensation to the workers so that they can live and afford to live without having to work until they die. The only way to obtain this fair compensation is to be part of a UNION.

[yellowirenut]

My employer is really good about providing competitive pay to the union shops. I make the same amount but without union dues with payed vacations and payed holidays. I have heath insurance and a take home truck. For me at the present time i am very very happy to be in a MERIT shop. Your pay scale reflects your abilities and schooling. Each individual should have the choice in what type of shop they would best fit..its a personality fit i think. I believe i have more independence in my current location. Other may like the more structured carrier of a union. I do not like the new bill that would open your vote for all to see..a vote is a personal thing. I do not like uber pro union guys telling me i am taking food out of there kids mouths. Union or non we all should do our job beyond the best of our abilities and give the customers what they ask with in code and the law of physics.

[zzonko]

My employer is really good about providing competitive pay to the union shops. I make the same amount but without union dues with payed vacations and payed holidays. I have heath insurance and a take home truck. For me at the present time i am very very happy to be in a MERIT shop. Your pay scale reflects your abilities and schooling. Each individual should have the choice in what type of shop they would best fit..its a personality fit i think. I believe i have more independence in my current location. Other may like the more structured carrier of a union. I do not like the new bill that would open your vote for all to see..a vote is a personal thing. I do not like uber pro union guys telling me i am taking food out of there kids mouths. Union or non we all should do our job beyond the best of our abilities and give the customers what they ask with in code and the law of physics.

Union shops also work on the merit system. If you do not have the skill or motivation, then you do not work. Most Building and Trade Union guys who have both make above scale anyways. There is no job protection either. I have never met a signatory contractor that would have it any other way

[timebuilder]

well here we go again about this union non-union thing

i noticed that the efca was mentioned, it is about time that you guys get more protection for those that would like to unionize.

I live in Ontario and we have the Labour Relations Act that protect the workers choice, even though there are some changes that could be made it has worked.

As for the question should you go UNION i myself find it very easy there is only one answer and that is to be Union. Union members usually have better benefits better pay better working conditions and so on.

one thing that is not mentioned is in our discussions over the Union or non-union issue is that most employers belong to what are known as employer organizations in Canada they are HRAI, Open shop contractors, the electrical league, I could go on and on with the list of associations. These organizations are there for the employer and they guide the employer in all aspects of the business this includes the task of how to deal with employees.
So in reality they are a form of union for the employer, interesting how an employer tells you haw bad it is to stick together but yet they do it themselves with their competitors.

So i think you guys should really look at what you doing and accept the fact that if you are a worker you are in the same boat as all the other workers and even though we like to see our employers succeed there should be fair compensation to the workers so that they can live and afford to live without having to work until they die. The only way to obtain this fair compensation is to be part of a UNION.

Thanks for your informative post about Canadian labor. My dad was a Mountie out in BC.

To my mind, it is a stretch to compare a union with a professional association for contractors. That would be a little like calling RSES or some other organization a union. In the US, when companies join a professional group like you described, it is to help share information that makes the business stronger. A strong business is good for workers, because weak businesses cannot afford raises and benefits, and they often go out of business, which is definitely bad for workers.

I think joining an existing union is a great idea for those doing commercial work. Philly is a BIG union town, and that is the nature of the union work here. Residential contractors (and several smaller scale commercial contractors) could not be competitive if EFCA forced them to unionize. Almost any residential contractor would be forced to close if an EFCA vote forced his hand. No one can say that a company being forced to close is good for anyone.

Perhaps the most telling factor involving EFCA is the position taken by George McGovern. When I was a young man, George McGovern was THE most liberal politician outside of the Communist Worker's Party. He does not support the idea that American workers should lose the right to vote secretly and without coercion either for or against changing to a union shop environment at their current employer. I believe that speaks volumes.

Union employment is great when the circumstances are there to support it. Most of the time, those circumstances are anything but supportive.

[coolestacman]

merit shop is all fine and dandy what happens to your benefits if the shop closes or the boss decides that you are not cost effective.
The biggest thing now is guys that are injured at work have to fight for WSIB (insurance for injured workers) An average fight could cost a guy 2-3 grand for a simple case. Pretty hard to come by that money when you are are not collecting a pay check. Unions in ontario cover the cost for WSIB appeals.

I have friends that work in the non-union sector and they always tell me how well they are getting paid. The funny thing is I just got my best buddy (who was making union rate in a non-union shop) a job in a union shop and he now knows what union rate is and just from his comments it is clear he was not making union rate before.

I think before you claim you are making the rate compare and you will notice that somewhere you are not getting what you think you are.

Places to look

what is your pension contrabutions-a union journeymen in Ontario gets $11000 on a 2000 hour year.
over a 10 year period that is $110000.

what are your benefits- UA Local 787 in Ontario just under $3 an hour and you get life insurance, dental, glasses, laser eye surgery, and disability. if you are in the union and retire you will keep your benefits for a while depending on years of service and how long you have been paying into benefits. Many of our life member will retire with life time benefits.
If you were to retire today and wanted benefits the same plan would cost you anywhere from 300-500 depending on what group you belong to ie CAA or retired teachers association. At a cost of $300 dollars a month being you would be paying for this out of your retirement fund at todays rates $300 a month income is = to $100 000 in a retirement income fund.
There are a couple examples that many people over look when thinking they are making rate.

By comparing the non-union rates in my area to union rates and benefits an average non-union guy will be short changed over a life time of work by $600,000.00
The ol merit shop is not so good after all