Surge protector

[ampulman]

We just had the brain (circuit board) of a 1.5 yr old refrigerator/freezer replaced. Of course, I have no way of knowing what actually caused the board to fail.

As a side note, I replaced my furnace/a-c this spring and have been thinking about having a panel mounted surge protector installed. We have occasional power failures and few thunder storms, however, the refrigerator failure has brought this issue into sharp focus.

Even though I have an extended parts/labor warranty for the system, I would rather prevent a failure as they usually happen at an inconvenient time.

So, I'd like some opinions from the PROs regarding how worthwhile (effective) having a SP installed, would be.

Thanks.

Amp

[WhoIsThat?]

I have an extended parts/labor warranty for the system

If board costs $X and a surge protector is $X/10, buy it, but it has to be able to withstand the surge current of the fridge.
It will be better if you get a component surge protection device and put it in just upstream of the board.

[ampulman]

If board costs $X and a surge protector is $X/10, buy it, but it has to be able to withstand the surge current of the fridge.
It will be better if you get a component surge protection device and put it in just upstream of the board.

Thanks for your response, Who. Actually, the one I'm looking at is about 1/3 the cost of the board. I'm primarily interested in protecting my HVAC system which is hard wired. Household electronics would be a plus.

Before the service guy got there, we had an anxious day trying to preserve the cooled and frozen food. Fortunately, a cold garage helped. It (the SP) has rather good ratings so I think it would handle the fridge's motors. I'm more concerned about surges coming in from outside the home. My thinking is that the refrig has start and run capacitors which I think would handle any self-generated surges. Also, there really isn't any room to install a device as everything is really packed together.

I wasn't limiting the discussion to HVAC guys, although I value their judgment, and would welcome input from electricians and EEs as well. Trying to understand the nuts and bolts of how surges travel up or downstream to affect other devices. If the SP is at the panel, does the surge 'travel back' to the service entrance to be squelched?

Thanks.

Amp

P.S., Just curious, what kind of PRO are you?

[jwiehagen76]

You may want to have that done GE has some with a good warrenty

[WhoIsThat?]

the one I'm looking at is about 1/3 the cost of the board.Just curious, what kind of PRO are you?

Florida has a lot of lightning strikes. Elsewhere, I guess you take your chances.
We had a dishwasher that went bonkers anytime there was any kind of glitch, but I still don't have a suppressor. And our new dishwasher has an electromechanical timer.

Motors and coils are inherently hardy, so were vacuum tubes, and electronics could be that way but the manufacturers don't seem to be that interested in adequately protecting their microprocessor-controlled stuff.

I've never seen any data for surge protectors that said what kind of before/after performance you could expect, but by now there might be tutorials on the Web, and maybe even some test results.

I am/was an EE.

[rcamner]

I'm not a pro (just a handy consumer!), but I'll give my experience with whole house surge protectors anyway...

I live in the Pacific Northwest, where power tends to be reliable (and cheap). I survived a power outage, but quite a number of neighbors had their household electronics fried when the power came back on with a surge.

I installed a whole house surge suppressor (a not-terribly-cheap Leviton, rather than the Home Depot/Lowes variety which was a whole lot less but whose specs were very different).

One way I benefitted was that before the installation, my CF bulbs installed in my outside fixtures would burn out within 6 months to a year (so much for "5-7 years!"), but after the suppressor was installed, they lasted as they should have. I've also never had a household electronics failure, despite a few power outages.

Following the advice of the electrical supply house that sold me the device, I still use plug-in surge protectors inside the house to further protect my computers. They respond more quickly than the whole house device, but don't handle as much of a spike.

Hope this helps...

[cem-bsee]

cheapest is to go to BestBuy & get some power strips with the highest joule rating ~ $30.
I have used Panamax surge protectors for 20y.
I had one vaporized, yet it protected a computer & copier [$10k].

if the MOV in one fails, it is shorted,
so the better protectors have an indicator LED that all is ok [or not].

outside city limits, install station grade lightning protectors -- at the masthead of the incoming power line above your meter. such costs about $500, the last I checked, + install.
HOWEVER, the connection will necessitate the power company shutting off the power.
Keep the grounding lead from this as straight & short as possible.
be SURE that all grounding rods are interconnected! -- with at least #6awg solid copper.

I have Panamax on: refrig, freezer, hi fi, TV, cmptr, washer, refrig.

[heaterman]

Extended warranty even regular warranty really is no protection for for your HVAC system. A failure that involves any type of damage caused to the equipment by an outside force IS NOT equipment failure and is not covered by any warranty I've ever had in force. If you have electrical issues on a regular basis, lightning and surge protection is a must.

[ampulman]

Extended warranty even regular warranty really is no protection for for your HVAC system. A failure that involves any type of damage caused to the equipment by an outside force IS NOT equipment failure and is not covered by any warranty I've ever had in force. If you have electrical issues on a regular basis, lightning and surge protection is a must.

I am aware of that caveat, but how does a tech tell the difference between a 'natural' failure of a board and a surge or whatever, when there are no exploded components, burn marks or other signs of 'trauma'?

Amp

[cem-bsee]

the other important part of the protection is to be sure the grounding system is good --
rod outside of the 'drip line' of the roof so it can be in damp soil,
the wire to it is well clamped.
not many bends in the wire [normally #6awg solid copper in hse.]

do youi really need a refrig with electronics?
can one buy one without such?

[behappy]

Welllll.

Our last house was built outside of the city and we lost the board in the microwave 3 times in 2 years. I called the Power company and they put "whole house" surge protection on the incoming line. We did not have a power related issue for the next 20+ years (Maybe I was lucky, maybe it worked).

When we rebuilt I climbed up on the roof of the old house and took down the info off the devices. I contacted the company and bought a number of these devices (I put them on customer houses).

I use lightning and surge protectors, 2 different devices and they are placed on the main power panel as it enters the home. I would suggest if you go this way to contact the power company. There are a lot of (what I call) scam devices at hardware stores I would not put on my house... My 2 cents...

[WhoIsThat?]

they put "whole house" surge protection on the incoming line. We did not have a power related issue for the next 20+ years (Maybe I was lucky, maybe it worked).

Would you have the specs or a make and model on what they installed? PoCo knows better than anyone what kind of garbage is being sent along their lines.

I can't easily find a US map showing how often lightning strikes what states, except I know Florida has problems with this. Those areas that are prone to strikes should be buying heavy duty surge protectors at above average rates, or UPS's.
The whole US is probably subject to PoCos not wanting to bite the bullet and upgrade worn-out insulation. Intermittent short circuits and squirrels getting fried probably cause undervoltage more often than overvoltage, I'm not sure.

Electronics without memories better resist this type thing, but I think now they all have memories and no reset button. Non-volatile memories will not reset by cutting power.

An electronics board with no burn marks could have failed from overvoltage or poor design or it might just be locked up in a illegal state.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite_state_machine
The TelCo is a state machine. When your phone is in the "off hook" state TelCo is supposed to give you a dial tone. When you enter the number TelCo leaves the "dial tone" state and tries to connect you. Then TelCo is in the state where the called party hears the bell ring and the caller gets a ringing signal. If the called party picks up then TelCo goes into the connected state and waits for the call termination so it can give the line to some other caller.

I think even the factory can only guess about the cause of a board failure, unless they have enough failures to establish a trend and a possible root cause.