I'm the Journeyman and you're the Apprentice - Page 2
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  1. #14
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    Jun 2004
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    Location:Raleigh NC
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    9,587
    What I'm saying is at the very lest he could have said sorry about the mess I left. We all did our time and all should do their time. Just don't be an a$$.
    If you help others then you are a Success

  2. #15
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
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    237
    Quote Originally Posted by skwsproul View Post
    Having been there done that. i worked for the Gov for a little over 10 years. When I got started I was a helper, even with a strong mechanical background and a degree in electronics and a minor in industrial design. My main jib was to make the equipment rooms shine, we even had manufacturers take photos of their equipment in "my" equipment rooms. Still we would have repairs that would have to be made. The journeyman would come in and "fix" teh problem leaving a mess for me to clean. I hated it, I would say things like " I dont care about making money, I just love to mop floors." Me having all of the tools and more meant nothing. Having all of the ability to make the same repairs that the journeyman made meant nothing. I was a helper, and it sucked. 10 flights of steps to the mech room and oops I forgot my meter, I had to go back down and get his meter. It sucked for sure, but it was what it was and I did it. I paid my dues and I have no respect for "helpers" who think that they are beyond that. We are in a new time where suddenly "helpers" think we owe them something, even though I would NEVER put them through what I went through. Being a slob and not cleaning up after ones self is a problem but "helpers" job is to help and that may mean cleaning up after the one who has already been there done that. It is a fine line but it has to be drawn at some point. Helpers nowadays are getting breaks that I had never even wished for in the past. PAY YOUR DUES AND RESPECT YOUR VETS, IF YOU DO NOT YOU WILL NOT BE WORTH A SHAT IN THIS OR ANY FIELD.

    I think the whole journeyman and apprentice issue really comes down to the integrity and morale of both parties involved....when I started out in the residential hvac install field I was under a guy who let me know many times that I don't know anything and he would basically keep me that way so his job would stay safe.....I began to truly hate my job......then one day we both got laid off and he went to work somewhere else and the nonsense stopped. I learned more from the other journeyman (who i became friends with) I was then working with in 5 months than the previous year.....I was now roughing in new construction jobs and doing other things without being ridiculed for everyting I did.

    Personally, I look forward when the day comes that I can train an apprentice. I am a teacher at heart and know that I would excell at training new guys in the trade. Sure the apprentice must clean up and gather up tools.....but only after I have explained everything done on the job. Personally I feel so many journeymen have the old school philisophy embedded in their brains that the apprentice is just some stupid kid who is here to serve them.......hence one of the reasons why new guys will not come into our field.

    A real solution to this problem would not to assume that just because a guy has the journeyman title means he can teach. Many techs can do the work but are simply not good teachers. Reminds me of the lead teacher at the tech school I went to.....50 years in the business (of course he was never wrong at anything) and very good technically. But he was a poor teacher. He spoke over our heads and lost alot of us on many issues.

    So just because a guy has many years of hands on experience does not equate to solid teaching skills.

    I will leave with one good example conversation:

    "Oh Mr. Journeyman, why should you wait to check the superheat on a walk-in box until the box is near it's operating temperature range (between 34 and 40 degrees for example)?" "Because I said so and that's the way I've done it all my life....don't question me Mr. Apprentice!"

    You see, sure Mr. Journeyman knows when to check superheat, but he did not answer the "why" part of the question.....a compotent teacher will explain the how and why and certainly not feel threatened by an honest question.

  3. #16
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Mid Michigan
    Posts
    319
    I think that it needs to be nipped in the bud. I get the whole paying your dues thing but what kind of lesson is being taught to the apprentice. Once you have gained your statis then you can act as you want. If you have time to make a mess then you have time to clean it up. As a friend of mine says everyone has something to learn from. Either you are a good example or a cautionary tale.
    Waddya mean don't thaw out the frig with a knive?

  4. #17
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    Jun 2004
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    Location:Raleigh NC
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    9,587
    I Agree

    they need to do their Time but Our job is to TRAIN then NOT belittle them
    If you help others then you are a Success

  5. #18
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Western PA
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    25,335
    Quote Originally Posted by intellitech View Post
    I will leave with one good example conversation:

    "Oh Mr. Journeyman, why should you wait to check the superheat on a walk-in box until the box is near it's operating temperature range (between 34 and 40 degrees for example)?" "Because I said so and that's the way I've done it all my life....don't question me Mr. Apprentice!"

    You see, sure Mr. Journeyman knows when to check superheat, but he did not answer the "why" part of the question.....a compotent teacher will explain the how and why and certainly not feel threatened by an honest question.
    That is actually a pretty good approximation of a conversation with this guy.

    The longer I work with him and the more technical problems that I get involved in, the more I think that he is an average tech at best and will never improve. He knows enough about what he has been working on to get by, but throw new stuff at him and he gets lost.

  6. #19
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    1,347
    This seems to come up a lot. It is more of a reflection of the character of the individual then paying your dues. If any one of the apprentices I work with ask me question, I due my best to answer. What I don't want is an apprentice questioning my decisions in front of a customer. Or talking about the decisions I have made with the client.

    Some journeymen yell and disgrace apprentices, and others build them up with constructive remarks,
    I STARTED WITH NOTHING, AND I STILL HAVE MOST OF IT!

  7. #20
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Toledo, Ohio, United States
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    12,899
    Twilli says we should all learn to play nice. Journeyman was in the wrong.
    No Heat No Cool You need Action Fast

  8. #21
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    austin
    Posts
    264
    lol. this is hillarious.
    if you think a title such "journeyman" gives you superiority, than you're an out of touch loser. maybe that stuff flew 20 or 30 years ago but kids are smarter these days.
    http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/images/editor/separator.gif
    i don't know any apprentice that would take that crap from a so called "journeyman"
    when life throws me a banjo, i play it

  9. #22
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    820
    im an aprentice and i would of just cleaned the mess and kept my mouth shut. the way i see it is that i will most likely need the journeymans help some day, having as many journeyman level techs in my corner is a dam good thing. Now a days theres too many young guys who get butt hurt for anything. if this younger tech cleans the motor room and gets pissed because someone got it dirty then he will be in a world of shiat.
    I will take a bullet for my Veto LC tool bag!

  10. #23
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    USA
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    1,448
    There is a certain matter of respect that seems to get lost nowadays. I have no problem teaching green techs. I do not disrespect them by making them do things that I do not want to do. They do however have to do things my way because ultimately I am the one whos reputation is on the line when we leave.

    That being said. I get a lot of calls for tech support and I do not mind it, it keeps me on my toes. The only time I have a problem with it is when I get called for the quick answer, meaning that they have not taken the time to figure out the problem on their own. When I get those calls I generally ask questions that make them trouble shoot the unit on their own, even if I know the answer. Some get mad but most appreciate this approach because they truly learn this way. Any green tech who shows an honest interest gets my respect instantly, period. If he is only here to make his paycheck than he gets to clean, get my tools and make my life easier, you dont want to learn than you are my biatch, plain and simple now clean up this crap. Nothing ticks me off more than a disrespectful punk who has been given an opportunity that so many would kill to get, I mean face it these helpers are getting paid way more than what they would make at a fast food joint.
    "It's always controls"

  11. #24
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    Jan 2005
    Location
    USA
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    Quote Originally Posted by refer guy View Post
    im an aprentice and i would of just cleaned the mess and kept my mouth shut. the way i see it is that i will most likely need the journeymans help some day, having as many journeyman level techs in my corner is a dam good thing. Now a days theres too many young guys who get butt hurt for anything. if this younger tech cleans the motor room and gets pissed because someone got it dirty then he will be in a world of shiat.
    You deserve respect just based on your attitude towards your field of choice. If you lived closer I would be honored to assist you in becoming the tech you want to be. Bragging a little but I have helped many they are all very competent techs now and I always like to tell any one that it is not what you know but knowing where to get the answers.
    "It's always controls"

  12. #25
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Rapid City, SD
    Posts
    7,414
    God being an apprentice sucks!
    I was one for 4 years (sheet metal), and the grunt work and hours of pooky duty wasn't the greatest thing, but the part I hated was the god like attitude that most journeymen had.

    The one I learned the most from handled things the way I did when I became a journeyman. When your green, you are stuck doing the grunt crappy work. But as the apprentice learns the way I do it is to step back and let the apprentice do the thinking work, push them, make them nervous since they have to figure it out, but be there to help them. During that phase I was more than happy to do some pooky'in here and there, carry in the duct.

    I think in the final parts of apprenticeship the journeyman shouldn't be doing much at all (of the thinking work) just a lot of guiding and watching.

    I'm back in the seat of apprentice (8 yrs in the field) but this is union, and service which is kinda new to me. For the most part the guys I work with don't really look at anyone as journeyman / apprentice, your just another person working with them, and they happen to know more about certain things than you do.

    One guy though is much like the OP's story. It don't matter what the rank is, he thinks everyone is below him, no one is as smart as him, and the company "needs" him. If another worker needs some help, even if it's bad nasty grunt dirty work that no one would ever want to do, I'm more than happy to help them. The guy with a 'tude, even if he needed help holding a ladder, I all but refuse to help him. I don't have respect for people like him.

    Sorry, got a lil off topic there. I think the Journeyman was in the wrong. Not so much for making the mess and not cleaning it himself, but the way he handled it. If he explained why he couldn't clean it up, fine. If he helped get it started (more than throw litter down), fine.
    "If you call that hard work, a koala’s life would look heroic."

  13. #26
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Middletown, Ohio USA
    Posts
    571
    A title is just a title. Journeyman, Field Service Supervisor, Account Manager, etc. There is no guarantee that the possessor of that title is knowledgeable or equipped to do the job. There are apprentices that do better quality work than journeymen (the journeymen are in a "hurry", etc.). There are journeymen who have a better understanding of equipment and the customers than supervisors. There are supervisors who understand how to treat customers better than account managers.

    There is no sense disrespecting another. A title is just a title. It's hollow words. You can hide behind your title but your work and your actions will speak for themselves.
    See, the human mind is kind of like... a piñata. When it breaks open, there's a lot of surprises inside. Once you get the piñata perspective, you see that losing your mind can be a peak experience. ~Jane Wagner

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