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Thread: Zigbee Sniffer

  1. #27
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    Would be interested to hear how many oems are enabling zigbee encryption. Just a quick read on it, I thought I saw mention to include the zigbee logo on your product it needs to be supported and enabled.

    Also are there any open source zigbee capture & transmit software that works on mid range sdrs that cover 2.4ghz? Preferably something other than gnu radio, windows anyone?
    Propagating the formula. http://www.noagendashow.com/

  2. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by control$ View Post
    I'm going to get a hold of some of the new ALC wireless stuff to try out. For me it kills two birds since I've never used them.
    Since i have the a few SDR's and software on my laptop I'll try it out at some of my PM's. I see plenty of noise and signals in my area in the BT band,WIFI frequencies. And I live in the SoCal Mojave Desert! You got my interest up on this subject. I'm curious how much noise is inside a building in a urban area at the 2.4g range.
    ALC Wireless sensors are enocean, whole different animal.
    Scott Jalbert
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    The S in IoT stands for Security

  3. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxBurn View Post
    ALC Wireless sensors are enocean, whole different animal.
    I see that now. 902MHZ VS 2.4gigs. A lot less activity down at 33 cents and slightly better range.

  4. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxBurn View Post
    ALC Wireless sensors are enocean, whole different animal.
    Good day Maxburn,

    I tested an EnOcean based device and the results were horrible... the claimed 60 foot line of sight range was less than 20 feet within my open lab space... Rather than spend more time and $$$ evaluating other products I simply designed up a very slick wireless controller than met the customers needs 100%... I am getting well over 500 feet of range even in an Industrial plant with lots of surrounding metal and electrical noise.

    The lesson is to test and evaluate any wireless products before one commits to them.

    Cheers,

    Sam

  5. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by s2sam View Post
    Good day Maxburn,

    I tested an EnOcean based device and the results were horrible... the claimed 60 foot line of sight range was less than 20 feet within my open lab space... Rather than spend more time and $$$ evaluating other products I simply designed up a very slick wireless controller than met the customers needs 100%... I am getting well over 500 feet of range even in an Industrial plant with lots of surrounding metal and electrical noise.

    The lesson is to test and evaluate any wireless products before one commits to them.

    Cheers,

    Sam
    The ALC/Magnum sensors are an entirely different use case, they're wireless solar powered zone sensors so of course they won't have big range.
    Scott Jalbert
    WebCTRL ninja
    AX and Smartstruxure newb

    The S in IoT stands for Security

  6. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxBurn View Post
    The ALC/Magnum sensors are an entirely different use case, they're wireless solar powered zone sensors so of course they won't have big range.
    Good day MaxBurn,

    Understood. The ones I used used extracted the energy from the movement of the switch. That being said, the manufacturer claimed a max distance of 60 feet and I was lucky... lucky to get 20 feet. If one were to have used the claimed specs and even downgraded them to say 50% of the rated distance, one would look pretty silly in front of the customer... and would be out of bunch of time and $$$.

    On a side note... to date, I have not come across any EnOcean based devices in any of my customer sites.

    Cheers,

    Sam

  7. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by s2sam View Post
    I simply designed up a very slick wireless controller than met the customers needs 100%... I am getting well over 500 feet of range even in an Industrial plant with lots of surrounding metal and electrical noise.
    What technology and protocol was used for the wireless portion?

  8. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by amigo View Post
    What technology and protocol was used for the wireless portion?
    Good day Amigo,

    I ended up using OOK modulation, but had the option of FSK operating at 433 Mhz. The lower frequency allowed me go much father distances, less background noise (as compared to the more mainstream frequencies used), and lower power consumption (although this was not a design constraint). The data was sent using a custom/proprietary protocol, as it did not have to wirelessly interface with any other equipment.

    The application was a long range wireless lighting (and small load) control system used in a large and active manufacturing facility. Sadly, during the design and construction of the plant no one thought about distributing the lighting, etc controls. Once the plant was in operation it was immediately clear that controls were needed. A hard wired system was not an option given the logistics of running conduit, wires, etc in an active plant with lots and lots of moving equipment operating 24/7, separated buildings, and tall ceilings (50+ feet), etc. Adding to this the lights operate at 347VAC (which is a standard here in Canada) which limits the number of available and electrically approved options. Power line modulation was an option, but it was felt that reliable operation would be a challenge given the power distribution. Wireless was the preferred choices, however, there were minimal long range industrial wireless controls available. Secondly, the ones that were available have limited range and was questionable how reliable they would be in such an environment (lots of surrounding metal, electrical noise, etc). The application really neede at least 100 foot range, but repeaters could be used if needed. I tried some light industrial EnOcean based devices and the results were horrible. I then proposed that I design and build them a solution that I know would work (I designed up a similar radio for another customer about 7 years ago.. still operating 24/7 since then) and that I could easily support.

    Cheers,

    Sam

  9. #35
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    Thanks for the details.
    I had similar experience with en-ocean and I won't touch it again for a long while.
    I have seen some custom zigbee pro implements that are pretty bullet proof, but then I have seen other zigbee pro that are worse than en-ocean.
    I think reliable wireless is very tricky and require considerable on-site and off-site investigation prior to implementation.

  10. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by amigo View Post
    Thanks for the details.
    I had similar experience with en-ocean and I won't touch it again for a long while.
    I have seen some custom zigbee pro implements that are pretty bullet proof, but then I have seen other zigbee pro that are worse than en-ocean.
    I think reliable wireless is very tricky and require considerable on-site and off-site investigation prior to implementation.
    Good day Amigo,

    You are most welcome!

    I have not done a formal Zigbee project, however, I did some testing within my lab/shop and I was not overly impressed. As you stated, one has to be on top of things for wireless to work properly. The "Plug and Play" marketing hype should really be taken with a grain of salt.

    Currently, I am working with Bluetooth Mesh (BT Mesh) and "Thread" and so far my testing has provided excellent results. Although Bluetooth Mesh (the spec) has not been formally released (I have been waiting about 2 years now) I am working with a pre-release stack and even so the results look very good... excellent range and very impressive power consumption (about 3-7 years on battery power). In fact I really think BT Mesh will easily outshine Zigbee...if I was Zigbee and/or have Zigbee based products I would be really worried.

    Thread is also quite impressive. I got accepted by the Thread group as an early adopter and so they have provided their pre-release stacks, etc to me. I have not thoroughly pushed my testing with Thread, but so far I like what I see. In fact the wireless device I am currently working on supports BT Mesh and Thread simultaneously... so the device can have the benefit of both Worlds.

    Cheers,

    Sam

  11. #37
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    Good day Sam.
    Are you working on a commercial BT product, or is it a custom product for specific customer?

  12. #38
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    I'd certainly be interested to hear more about BT mesh, there's a blurb on the website with all the marketing words in it.
    Scott Jalbert
    WebCTRL ninja
    AX and Smartstruxure newb

    The S in IoT stands for Security

  13. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by amigo View Post
    Good day Sam.
    Are you working on a commercial BT product, or is it a custom product for specific customer?
    Good day Amigo,

    It is a commercial product for general sale, but like most of the products I develop I have a few larger customers who I focus the product upon (helps to recover the R&D and initial manufacturing costs). In fact the core BT Mesh/Thread will be used in several other products as well.

    Cheers,

    Sam

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