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Thread: Molekule

  1. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by kmsafety View Post
    I have three more contractors coming out who have experience with metal duct systems. However, one of the contractors said he did not want to do the job because of the mold, which it is now gone, and because when they remove the existing flex duct boots that are connected to the studs it will damage the dry wall and they do not want to take responsibility for drywall matching.

    Another contractor suggested running metal duct for the main and then having flex going to all the vents.

    Would be great to have some example photos of round metal duck in an attic?

    I really like this duct design:

    Double-Wall, Round Duct

    http://www.mcgillairflow.com/dwroduct

    I really hope to find a contractor that takes pride in their metal duct work.

    BTW, my RH is 50% in the entire house.

    KM
    Jtrammel just did a round metal duct in an attic. In a school I think it was. Flex off of a metal trunk isnt bad provided the flex is done properly. Metal elbows to straight flex runs pulled taut and supported where necessary.
    Experience - knowing when to get the hell out of the way and plug your ears. "Don't be a sissy. Turn it on!"

    Poodle Head Mikey - "the world is well populated with the unknowing and the uncaring and the stupid."

    Jtrammel - "Im going to sell hvac systems derp derp derp"
    BBeerme - "every time he opens his mouth, he reminds me of a cow without the fart bag."

  2. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by HVAC_Marc View Post
    Jtrammel just did a round metal duct in an attic. In a school I think it was. Flex off of a metal trunk isnt bad provided the flex is done properly. Metal elbows to straight flex runs pulled taut and supported where necessary.
    This is how i like to do it. Round mains is less turbulant and saddle takeoffs are quick to install. If the lateral length is more than 10' i will run hard duct to within 5' of the diffuser and run flex for the last 5' to reduce noise. Always use metal 90 on ceiling diffusers.

    'The more you know, the more you realize you don't know'
    ...

  3. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by randyf View Post
    Hey KM,
    Couple of things impress me about OdorOx
    1. Impressive internal documents and studies (some 3rd party)
    2. Their success in restoration jobs is very impressive. Cleaning the air after a fire/flood is very impressive. There was a Costco that caught fire in Florida a couple of year ago. OdorOx removed the odors in a couple of days. This machines are used in rendering plants to remove odors.
    3. Their technology for producing hydroxyls is unique.

    I"ve spoken to one of their chief scientist and she was quite helpful.

    Have you compared using GC/MS from a 3rd party lab instead of using the Frog 4000. They send you a test kit. you sample, return and get results in 1 week.
    Advantages - More accuracy, can read down to the sub ppb concentrations. probably cheaper and can detect more VOCs.
    Disadvantages - Can't easily take readings in multiple locations.
    Be sure the Frog can read down into the low ppb levels or it's a waste.

    I've used:
    https://www.fikeanalytical.com/ Randal Fike is very accessable. He's got a PHD in analytical chemistry and could probably give you an unbiased opinion.
    Prisim Labs (Home Air Check) is another alternative.

    One thing both Prism and Fike offer is a reading of Mold VOCs. That's a good indicators of the extent of living mold. Don't know if the Frog can do that.

    I bought a Dylos 1100 Pro a couple of months ago. Will only read down to the .5um range but I'm really impressed with it. Cost about 250.00. Probably not much more than the rental.

    Been very useful in evaluating HEPA machines.

    Look forward to hearing your results. Sounds like your own the same mission as myself. This issue is driving me crazy.

    Good Luck
    Randy
    Randy:

    Have you looked into the Lennox Healthy Climate PUREAIR Air Purification System 14-23? It uses PCO, but claims to remove VOCs as well

    The PureAir system reduces concentrations of pollutants through a process called photocatalytic oxidation (PCO). Similar to the process used by the Department of Defense to combat germ warfare, PCO combines nature's three most powerful air purifiers:

    Ultraviolet light
    Titanium dioxide, a nontoxic substance found in the earth's crust
    Hydroxyl radicals, particles derived from hydrogen peroxide

    The PureAir PCO process involves three steps:

    The pleated media filter captures particles and bioaerosols like pollen and pet dander, removing them from the airstream.

    As the odor- and chemical-filled airstream flows over the UVA light, the airstream is exposed to the catalytic surface (titanium dioxide-coated mesh filter).

    The light energy activates the catalyst, which generates hydroxyl radicals. These particles, which are more than twice as powerful as chlorine, break down the odors and chemicals into carbon dioxide and water.

    UPDATE on Molekule:

    My Molekule air purifier is coming today!

    I spoke briefly with Dr. Yogi Goswami and asked if he was interested in using my home at as pilot project for the purifier that they are designing and testing for HVAC systems. He is going to look into it and it only makes sense with my background and that the university is so close, etc. Their hoping to have the system for HVAC available for the market by the beginning of next year.

    Not only is Yogi an outstanding/reputable scientist and engineer, but so are his children who studied at Standford and are running the Molekule company.

    I also met with the President of one of the most reputable HVAC companies in the area, he is a mechanical engineer, and he knows and has worked with Yogi too. However, he didn't know about the PECO technology, etc. I pray this all works out!

    Lastly, I am hoping to install insulated metal round pipe for the trunk, at the very least, per Marc, and a humidifier, per Teddy Bear. Probably going with a Carrier system.

    Best regards, KM

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  5. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by kmsafety View Post
    Randy:
    [QUOTE}
    Have you looked into the Lennox Healthy Climate PUREAIR Air Purification System 14-23? It uses PCO, but claims to remove VOCs as well

    The PureAir system reduces concentrations of pollutants through a process called photocatalytic oxidation (PCO). Similar to the process used by the Department of Defense to combat germ warfare, PCO combines nature's three most powerful air purifiers:
    Yes I am very aware of PCO technology. I've Extensively discussed PCO technology here in the 3 or so threads that I've participated in the last few months. There are gobs of manufacturers including the largest - RGF, that Marc resells and promotes. In fact the first 6 or 7 pages of the this consists of my counters to what I consider Marcs baseless objections to my comments.

    As regards Dr. Goswami, I have repeatedly remarked on his outstanding credentials and past experience starting with PCO technology and his current innovation of PECO technology. I've noted more than once the reason for my testing of the MoleKule, before OdorOx, was primarily because of the creds of Dr. Goswami and his publications. Unfotuneately my testing of the MoleKule with a PID meter was very disappointing as compared by a side by side of a hefty carbon filter impregnated with potasium iodide. I'm not the first to make this observations. See the Univ. of Syracuse referenced below. This issue is close to resolution due to the much appreciated work and efforts of Phil Myers (one of the chief scientist at MoleKule). Hope to have a report on this early next week.

    I no longer pay attention to manufactures touting their own implementation of this established and somewhat old technology (PCO), althought MoleKule and OdorOX seem a little more convincing (to me)
    There have been 100s' of objectiive scientific papers on PCO technology dating back of 2 decades. I've downloaded many of them. More often than not they don't support to over glowing manufactures over optimistic reports.

    I strongly suggest you download *ASHRAE Position Document on Filtration and Air Cleaning" https://tinyurl.com/y9sqk9du
    Read section 2.3 for an objective summary of what real science has to say on the matter. I do believe this report is a too conservative but you will have a much better grasp on the issues.
    And when they mention a reference that strikes your interest check it out.

    With that said here, and putting together my impressions from reviewing the literature here are my take a ways:

    1. PECO is just an improvement over classic PCO technology. It's still using photons to radiate a catalyst to produce hydroxyls. Benefits are claimed to be a lot more hydroxyls produced with lower energy photons. Some of the research done by MoleKule is impressive, but suffers from the same problems that apply to other manufacturers of PCO technology. Basically they use supper concentrated levels of a single pollutant (that would never be found in a home) in a very small container (a big fish bowl). We do not live in a fish bowl with supper high levels of a single pollutant.
    One Big Advantage of the MoleKule tech is that it's the only PCO/PECO device that I know of that Uses LEDs. These do not have to be replaced regularly as do UV tubes used by RGF and all the other manufactures I'm aware of

    2. PCO technology is much less effective with a mixture of multiple lower level pollutants. In fact some studies show incomplete breakdown of pollutants. Unfortunately these intermediates are often (formaldehyde) worse than the originals. See work down by Hodgson and Wechler. These are real scientists, not marketing guys writting PR blurbs
    Ref:
    Hodgson, A.T., H. Destaillats, D.P. Sullivan, and W.J. Fisk. 2007. Performance of ultraviolet
    photocatalytic oxidation for indoor air cleaning applications. Indoor Air 17:30516.

    Zhang, Y., J. Mo., Y. Li, J. Sundell, P. Wargocki, J. Zhang, J.C. Little, R. Corsi, Q. Deng, M.
    Leung, L. Fang, W. Chen, J. Li, and Y. Sun. 2011. Do commonly-used air cleaning
    technologies improve indoor air quality? A literature review. Atmospheric Environment
    45:432943.

    Dalrymple, O.K., E. Stefanakos, M.A. Trotz, and D.Y. Goswami. 2010. A review of the mechanisms
    and modelling of photocatalytic disinfection. Applied Catalysis B: Environmental

    This report from Univ of Syracuse did not bode well for PCO devices, carbon worked much better, but it may be dated.
    https://tinyurl.com/y9mp3264

    3. I do hope the MoleKule pans out and am thankful these guys are working with me, but the story is not complete. Hopefully I will have answers soon.

    4. As far as testing goes the best way to test these device is with Gas Chromatograpy/Mass Spec analysis. This can be done cheaply by Home Air Check (or Fike Analytical) for ~ $150 bucks per room, before and after treatment. PID meters are a second best. Not cheap but not unreasonable

    5. I agree with Teddy - using these magic boxes in lieu of proper ventalationion is not wise And the ASHRAE Totally Agrees.

    6. My main two interest are the MoleKule, OdorOX.

    Randy

  6. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by randyf View Post
    Yes I am very aware of PCO technology. I've Extensively discussed PCO technology here in the 3 or so threads that I've participated in the last few months. There are gobs of manufacturers including the largest - RGF, that Marc resells and promotes. In fact the first 6 or 7 pages of the this consists of my counters to what I consider Marcs baseless objections to my comments.

    As regards Dr. Goswami, I have repeatedly remarked on his outstanding credentials and past experience starting with PCO technology and his current innovation of PECO technology. I've noted more than once the reason for my testing of the MoleKule, before OdorOx, was primarily because of the creds of Dr. Goswami and his publications. Unfotuneately my testing of the MoleKule with a PID meter was very disappointing as compared by a side by side of a hefty carbon filter impregnated with potasium iodide. I'm not the first to make this observations. See the Univ. of Syracuse referenced below. This issue is close to resolution due to the much appreciated work and efforts of Phil Myers (one of the chief scientist at MoleKule). Hope to have a report on this early next week.

    I no longer pay attention to manufactures touting their own implementation of this established and somewhat old technology (PCO), althought MoleKule and OdorOX seem a little more convincing (to me)
    There have been 100s' of objectiive scientific papers on PCO technology dating back of 2 decades. I've downloaded many of them. More often than not they don't support to over glowing manufactures over optimistic reports.

    I strongly suggest you download *ASHRAE Position Document on Filtration and Air Cleaning" https://tinyurl.com/y9sqk9du
    Read section 2.3 for an objective summary of what real science has to say on the matter. I do believe this report is a too conservative but you will have a much better grasp on the issues.
    And when they mention a reference that strikes your interest check it out.

    With that said here, and putting together my impressions from reviewing the literature here are my take a ways:

    1. PECO is just an improvement over classic PCO technology. It's still using photons to radiate a catalyst to produce hydroxyls. Benefits are claimed to be a lot more hydroxyls produced with lower energy photons. Some of the research done by MoleKule is impressive, but suffers from the same problems that apply to other manufacturers of PCO technology. Basically they use supper concentrated levels of a single pollutant (that would never be found in a home) in a very small container (a big fish bowl). We do not live in a fish bowl with supper high levels of a single pollutant.
    One Big Advantage of the MoleKule tech is that it's the only PCO/PECO device that I know of that Uses LEDs. These do not have to be replaced regularly as do UV tubes used by RGF and all the other manufactures I'm aware of

    2. PCO technology is much less effective with a mixture of multiple lower level pollutants. In fact some studies show incomplete breakdown of pollutants. Unfortunately these intermediates are often (formaldehyde) worse than the originals. See work down by Hodgson and Wechler. These are real scientists, not marketing guys writting PR blurbs
    Ref:
    Hodgson, A.T., H. Destaillats, D.P. Sullivan, and W.J. Fisk. 2007. Performance of ultraviolet
    photocatalytic oxidation for indoor air cleaning applications. Indoor Air 17:305–16.

    Zhang, Y., J. Mo., Y. Li, J. Sundell, P. Wargocki, J. Zhang, J.C. Little, R. Corsi, Q. Deng, M.
    Leung, L. Fang, W. Chen, J. Li, and Y. Sun. 2011. Do commonly-used air cleaning
    technologies improve indoor air quality? A literature review. Atmospheric Environment
    45:4329–43.

    Dalrymple, O.K., E. Stefanakos, M.A. Trotz, and D.Y. Goswami. 2010. A review of the mechanisms
    and modelling of photocatalytic disinfection. Applied Catalysis B: Environmental

    This report from Univ of Syracuse did not bode well for PCO devices, carbon worked much better, but it may be dated.
    https://tinyurl.com/y9mp3264

    3. I do hope the MoleKule pans out and am thankful these guys are working with me, but the story is not complete. Hopefully I will have answers soon.

    4. As far as testing goes the best way to test these device is with Gas Chromatograpy/Mass Spec analysis. This can be done cheaply by Home Air Check (or Fike Analytical) for ~ $150 bucks per room, before and after treatment. PID meters are a second best. Not cheap but not unreasonable

    5. I agree with Teddy - using these magic boxes in lieu of proper ventalationion is not wise And the ASHRAE Totally Agrees.

    6. My main two interest are the MoleKule, OdorOX.

    Randy
    Hi Randy:

    You do not have to keep 'repeating' yourself and especially to me: I have read everything you wrote/quoted on this site and I understand it; I am pretty smart about all this too. I was only curious if you heard of Lennox's purifier, but I guess you have read/researched EVERY air purifier created by mankind; so, I will not ask you about this anymore. I was only looking for a short response, e.g., yes or no. Also, I wanted to update you that I spoke w/ Yogi.

    Early in my career I worked with people who developed MCS from exposure to toxic drinking water, toxic chemicals, etc., and it was one of the most upsetting, sobering and frustrating experiences of my career.

    Have you had a chance to consult with a toxicologist and/or epidemiologist regarding your home and health problems?

    I have been studying air purifiers for over 5 years and because of my background in EHS/OSH and the conclusions of the research I was never satisfied enough to purchase any of systems on the market. However, I am impressed with the Molekule and I high hopes it will work.

    I am still in the process of deciding on the best indoor air monitoring equipment for my health hazard evaluation. I know plenty of competent and qualified associates who have PhD/Master degrees, certifications, licenses and over 30+ years of experience with indoor/outdoor air, soil, water, etc., sampling experience with demonstrated success. Regardless, sampling in my home because of the many unknowns will be complex. I have a lot of respect for degreed and experience professionals who are not afraid to say: "I do not know," but it is the ones who think they know it ALL that concern me the most.

    Looking forward to reading the results from Phil!

    Thanks, KM

  7. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by kmsafety View Post
    Hi Randy:
    You do not have to keep 'repeating' yourself and especially to me: I have read everything you wrote/quoted on this site and I understand it; I am pretty smart about all this too. I was only curious if you heard of Lennox's purifier, but I guess you have read/researched EVERY air purifier created by mankind;[/QUOTE}
    Well when you said
    Have you looked into the Lennox Healthy Climate PUREAIR Air Purification System 14-23? It uses PCO, but claims to remove VOCs as well
    The PureAir system reduces concentrations of pollutants through a process called photocatalytic oxidation (PCO). Similar to the process used by the Department of Defense to combat germ warfare, PCO combines nature's three most powerful air purifiers:
    so, I will not ask you about this anymore. I was only looking for a short response, e.g., yes or no.
    I got the impression that PCO technology was new to you and you were informing me of this new tech. There are tons of manufactures that either licenses other folks tech or making their own. The fact that Lenox has a version is of little use to me as I don't have a lenox system and I'm not looking standard PCO solution. I thought that was clear from my previous post.

    Also, I wanted to update you that I spoke w/ Yogi.
    And that I did find that interesting and appreciate your mentioning that.

    [QUOTE]
    Have you had a chance to consult with a toxicologist and/or epidemiologist regarding your home and health problems?
    [/QUOTE}
    And what *health* problems are you referring to??
    All I mentioned was odors and excess TVOC levels determined by GC. Six months after moving in levels were 2200ng/liter. Latest test, from a different were 1400ng/liter.
    The best standard I could find is a max of 500ng/liter.
    And yes I've consulted with Industrial Hygienist, they arranged one of the GC test I did.

    I have been studying air purifiers for over 5 years and because of my background in EHS/OSH and the conclusions of the research I was never satisfied enough to purchase any of systems on the market.
    Yes I you've mention your credentials a number of times and you can keep on mentioning them. That's fine. But all that counts is data, results.[/QUOTES]

    However, I am impressed with the Molekule and I high hopes it will work.
    And that's been my position for the last few months. I've even spent too many post defending baseless criticisms of the MoleKule. Their new spin on PCO technology is fascinating especially considering the credentials of the developers.

    I am still in the process of deciding on the best indoor air monitoring equipment for my health hazard evaluation. I know plenty of competent and qualified associates who have PhD/Master degrees, certifications, licenses and over 30+ years of experience with indoor/outdoor air, soil, water, etc., sampling experience with demonstrated success.
    Yes I know - You hobnod with PHD/Experts and all sorts of experienced folks and you even fit the heading your self. But again - the only thing that counts are measurements and numbers. Now - the fact that PHD/Experts develop the methodolgy measuring the numbers is important, the fact that know plenty of PHDs by their first name is irrelevant.
    Regardless, sampling in my home because of the many unknowns will be complex.
    Could be, but that doesn't mean a simple test couldn't yield important info.
    Order a Gas Chromatograhpy test kit and take a sample in the room you complained about having the musty odor.
    That may not be all the info you are after but surely it's a start.

    I have a lot of respect for degreed and experience professionals who are not afraid to say: "I do not know," but it is the ones who think they know it ALL that concern me the most.
    I guess that's sort of a passive/aggressvie swipe at me - a disrespected know it all.
    Well here's a summary of what I know and don't know (based on published researched by your best buddies - PHDs):
    1. Oxidizing generators (PCO, PECO, OdorOX) can degrade VOCs.
    2. Lots of data on PCO tech with mixed results. In some cases producing partially degraded VOCs with more problems than the originals.
    3. It's also unclear how effective these device are in real world situations with mixed pollutants at lower but troublesome levels.
    4. The only way to know is to measure, quantitize. The methodology and tools for doing this exits and are accessible.
    5. For me personally MoleKule and OdorOx look encouraging.
    6. I did the above with the MoleKule with disappointing results. To their merit and my deep appreciation MoleKule is working to resolve the issue.

    Looking forward to reading the results from Phil!
    I've receive preliminary feedback from Phil, but won't report until I have a response to some of my questions that were generated.

    In Phil believes something went wrong with the Catalyst in my unit. This was determined after they did some extensive testing of my unit.
    This generated some questions on my end. I'll report fully when my latest round of questions are anwered.

    Randy

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  9. #124
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    Probably not needed, but I apologize for all too often posted without checking.
    Sorry for all the syntax and spelling errors.

    Randy

  10. #125
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    KM - click my profile and send me an email. I looked in your profile but dont see your address...
    Experience - knowing when to get the hell out of the way and plug your ears. "Don't be a sissy. Turn it on!"

    Poodle Head Mikey - "the world is well populated with the unknowing and the uncaring and the stupid."

    Jtrammel - "Im going to sell hvac systems derp derp derp"
    BBeerme - "every time he opens his mouth, he reminds me of a cow without the fart bag."

  11. #126
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    Marc: Just email you, KM

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  13. #127
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    For the record - kmsafety asked the Admin to have his account deactivated. That's why it reads "banned".
    Experience - knowing when to get the hell out of the way and plug your ears. "Don't be a sissy. Turn it on!"

    Poodle Head Mikey - "the world is well populated with the unknowing and the uncaring and the stupid."

    Jtrammel - "Im going to sell hvac systems derp derp derp"
    BBeerme - "every time he opens his mouth, he reminds me of a cow without the fart bag."

  14. #128
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    Very interesting discussion so far, i'm very new to this and this thread has been interesting (google brought me here). I'm on the fence about purchasing a molekule, the cost is a factor but mostly I want to be as sure as possible it isn't emitting anything harmful itself. Many commenters especially on the youtube video's i've found on the unit are complaining of a terrible smell it emits which is quite worrying in itself.

    I eagerly await randyf's testing results as well as genesis's test results. Thank you both for offering to test these units and share your findings.

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    Gentlemen:

    Thank you for sharing so much of your knowledge with us all. I just finished reading this entire thread and I am so grateful and yet completely overwhelmed.

    I have a blueair 211 purifier but recently moved into an apartment where unfortunately, I have smoking neighbor and the blueair isnt removing the smoke which has been seeping into my apartment. Making matters more dior is that my 4 year old has pediatric asthma and has been struggling with respiratory illnesses.

    Since I live in an older building there is not an HVAC system so I need to address this problem with standalone units. I came across this thread while attempting to research Molekule as well as other purfiers made by AllerAir, RabbitAir and IQAir, etc. My primary concern is removing the smoke but also creating overall healthy air in our home.

    Randy, I look forward to hearing from you about the results of your tests and conversations with the Molekule.

    Any advice is welcome!!
    Thanks

    Anthony

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    Source control is better than any air filter have you tried figuring out where the smoke gets in from ?

    One thing to note is how much your neighbor smokes but also for how long this has been going on if your neighbor has lived there for a while there may be areas where the smoke has been absorbed into the building materials in your apartment ( e.g. a closet that smells like an old bar ). Is your air ok when there isnt new active smoking going on?

    I tried an IQ air multigas when I had this issue, but I did not find it did anything. I wish you better luck. If it is a rental unit , your landlord may be obligated to help.

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