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  1. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by itsiceman View Post
    I haven't seen any static airflow charts that were for wet coils. How would you know just how wet they were anyway?
    Dry data can be compared to wet data, and be calculated within a reasonable tolerance.

    I'm sure if it were tested enough, the accuracy could be within 2% on most applications.

    I guess we need to keep in mind, the accuracy of static pressure air flow measurement aren't even within 2%.
    "The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing" Socrates

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  2. #80
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    Doug I wouldn't want you to give it up unless you were really done. I can understand that but just a few short years ago this would have been an entirely different thread with analog gauge knuckle dragging shaved apes busting you on digital gauges lol
    Same **** different day IMO

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  4. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by mgenius33 View Post
    Dry data can be compared to wet data, and be calculated within a reasonable tolerance.

    I'm sure if it were tested enough, the accuracy could be within 2% on most applications.

    I guess we need to keep in mind, the accuracy of static pressure air flow measurement isn't even within 2%.
    Hard to reach measurements I get wireless static probes but other than that I don't get it.

    Even iManifold only records the measurements for a reports that only says you measured it.

  5. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by ga-hvac-tech View Post
    Yeah... I can see Costco folks that buy a system through Costco going for this... well a few of them...

    OTOH... do we as contractors want to give MORE of our business to big retailers???

    And I wonder how long it will be until Costco sells the operational information... like:
    *When someone is home and when they are away...
    *How much electricity one uses...
    *What temp one sets their house to...
    *etc, etc, etc...
    To anyone that will pay for it...
    Im not saying costco sells it. Im saying they use it in there stores to monitor there equipment operations. Major retailers are extremely ROI savvy when it comes to maintaining there cooling equipment. For them its a necessity to have a cool store. People don't like to be uncomfortable while they shop. They need to cool the store, if this device can improve operating cost by say 10 percent or more compared to not having one, they will want it. Because there is real bottom line advantage.

    Thats what Im talking about. The monitor system that Doug has conceptualized has a market - I just don't know its for everyone, but I will be the first to admit, Im a lousy salesmen.


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  6. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Lockhart View Post
    I give up.......keep doing beer can cold......go ahead and do what you did; you'll get what you got.
    GREAT open and positive minds........good thing our fore fathers weren't the same mindset on looking FORWARD.

    This works on any HVAC/R system guys.....your stuck on Resi.....
    Who ever said crap about beer can cold, and Im not stuck on resi.

    And don't be such a defeatist. If you cant champion the idea, who will. I like the idea, and I think it has real potential. But, that market is commercial, office buildings, refrigeration, national retail commercial, etc... for resi-you need the utilities to push for it, or subsidize it.

    Think about it - if the hardware cost, 2 K, and the install cost - 500 - thats equilivent to replacing most basic condensers and indoor coils outright - thats why it would be a hard sell.

    You bring that gauge to the market, in time Id probably buy it - but if your going to be in the gauge business, you need more then one offering.

    Look at Ford - they make 20 different models of car for a reason. Probably 10 different models of the F-series truck.

    Why? Not everyone wants, needs or can afford $80,000 for the top of the line.

    Thats my 2 cents.








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  7. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by heatingman View Post
    Im not saying costco sells it. Im saying they use it in there stores to monitor there equipment operations. Major retailers are extremely ROI savvy when it comes to maintaining there cooling equipment. For them its a necessity to have a cool store. People don't like to be uncomfortable while they shop. They need to cool the store, if this device can improve operating cost by say 10 percent or more compared to not having one, they will want it. Because there is real bottom line advantage.

    Thats what Im talking about. The monitor system that Doug has conceptualized has a market - I just don't know its for everyone, but I will be the first to admit, Im a lousy salesmen.


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    I was under the impression that the monitoring system Doug proposes essentially already exists in the building automaton world, but his sounds like a more affordable/more focused version.



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  9. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by mgenius33 View Post
    ??? I respect your view, but...

    Really? Do you honestly think theirs a big concern for hacks to take control of an hvac system. I can see a large commercial organization where a hacker can hold millions of perishable goods hostage , but those corporations already have their own closed loop systems. You really think it's worth the time for a hack to spend hours trying to interrupt a comfortable home? Where as the homeowner can simply flip a switch to turn the system offline, and go back to thermostat control? The monitoring would likely be used for nuisance type systems for short periods. Like a week or two max.

    I don't know if this is Doug's vision, but my perception is basically having HVAC-talk guys helping you when you need it.

    They could see what you're seeing, especially when you have tunnel vision.
    -Or-
    If you can't afford to hire a $70k a year tech to help you, this tool can be a direct connection between you and a $30k a year apprentice. Not to mention you have other techs around the nation that can offer assistance. Now that's the ROI I was talking about!

    I don't see this as a invasion of privacy.

    I'd hate to tell you, but anyone that has a home security system with cameras can be easily viewed with a tech login code.
    Yes, really. You are corresponding with one, of the many, who had their Samsung Blu-Ray player hacked. Why, you ask, would anyone hack something as mundane as a Blu-Ray player? Because the smart little buggers figured out that many people stream Amazon Prime and Netflix on this device. Samsung "streamlined" the process by storing all of the usernames and passwords on the Blu-Ray player in plain English! I was made aware of the problem when I was informed by email that a $700+ charge for computer games was shipped to an address in Washington state (I live in the middle of the woods, in Pennsylvania). All tolled, charges in excess of $1,300 were made to my accounts because of a brilliant marketing idea by some Samsung executive (and don't even start, about some engineer... to us this kind of problem is obvious... to "managers" it's called an "opportunity").

    Now lets look at the same "opportunity" offered by a system that monitors HVAC performance. Do you think the same kids who hacked my videos might notice a trend in the summer time when a particular home is trending an 80 degree indoor ambiant, between 7:30 AM and 5:40 PM, every Monday through Friday? What would they conclude from this information? It's not paranoia when your concern is a proven threat.

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  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by LEO ASHRAE View Post
    Yes, really. You are corresponding with one, of the many, who had their Samsung Blu-Ray player hacked. Why, you ask, would anyone hack something as mundane as a Blu-Ray player? Because the smart little buggers figured out that many people stream Amazon Prime and Netflix on this device. Samsung "streamlined" the process by storing all of the usernames and passwords on the Blu-Ray player in plain English! I was made aware of the problem when I was informed by email that a $700+ charge for computer games was shipped to an address in Washington state (I live in the middle of the woods, in Pennsylvania). All tolled, charges in excess of $1,300 were made to my accounts because of a brilliant marketing idea by some Samsung executive (and don't even start, about some engineer... to us this kind of problem is obvious... to "managers" it's called an "opportunity"). It's not paranoia when your concern is a proven threat.
    Do you folks own a smart phone? Or a computer?

    You made an account on this site so I assume so. Your smart phone or computer stores 100x more data then is being proposed for the iDRSA.

    This has turned into a thread chasing "the powers that be" and "Big Brother"

    Guys, this is about advancement in the trade and bettering yourself by creating more work thus creating more profit.

    Leave the Alex Jones stuff to the political forums.

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  13. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Lockhart View Post
    You know Leo, I think your right. I am NOT the guy that should do any of this any further. If after building the first one of these (my avatar) in 1987 and 'trying to get the industry to see my vision' has not worked of 30 years, then it/I is either a failure or still too far ahead of it's time as I was criticized with back then and I should give up trying to roll a 2000# stone up hill.
    I made a huge mistake in thinking I could try to do anymore than build a cheap 900 that would sell in very modest amounts.

    Good Luck Gentlemen with your endeavours.
    Doug,
    I'll call you tomorrow on your mobile. I think you just have a few myopic thinking trolls that you are dealing with in this thread, and their thinking does not represent the mindset of the vast majority in our profession.

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  15. #88
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    I'm personally not opposed to the whole idea; I just can't see myself buying into it. I like to think of myself as a refrigerant system analyzer and am OK with my knuckle dragging analog gauge ways. :grin:

    I think the most I would see myself doing is getting a set of basic digital gauges (just temps and pressures), but it sounds like the only set worth a damn is now off the market?

    Besides that; I'm not in a position to where an investment in the iDSRA technology would benefit me at all. I don't get raises for buying cool new tools and I already have what I need to measure what the gauges do.

    Something like this needs to be endorsed from the top; and the top seems to try to limit liability.

    A $2000 gauge set provided to an employee who may or may not take good enough care of it, who doesn't really give a crap about anything beyond the next payday, seems to be a risky move. That's probably the biggest hurdle you'll have.

    All of the "employer provided" tools at my shop are beat up and not well taken care of, while pretty much everything I've bought and paid for myself remains in good working order.

    For this type of thing to take off, you need the employee to have skin in the game by purchasing the gauges, and the employer needs to have a vested interest in maintaining the tools (like replacing/repairing sensors that fail.) So that the system reports provided to customers stays consistent and accurate.

    I can't even get my boss to replace a nitrogen regulator I've had for nearly 10 years that's just started failing. :grin:

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  16. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by shellkamp View Post
    I'm personally not opposed to the whole idea; I just can't see myself buying into it. I like to think of myself as a refrigerant system analyzer and am OK with my knuckle dragging analog gauge ways. :grin:

    I think the most I would see myself doing is getting a set of basic digital gauges (just temps and pressures), but it sounds like the only set worth a damn is now off the market?

    Besides that; I'm not in a position to where an investment in the iDSRA technology would benefit me at all. I don't get raises for buying cool new tools and I already have what I need to measure what the gauges do.

    Something like this needs to be endorsed from the top; and the top seems to try to limit liability.

    A $2000 gauge set provided to an employee who may or may not take good enough care of it, who doesn't really give a crap about anything beyond the next payday, seems to be a risky move. That's probably the biggest hurdle you'll have.

    All of the "employer provided" tools at my shop are beat up and not well taken care of, while pretty much everything I've bought and paid for myself remains in good working order.

    For this type of thing to take off, you need the employee to have skin in the game by purchasing the gauges, and the employer needs to have a vested interest in maintaining the tools (like replacing/repairing sensors that fail.) So that the system reports provided to customers stays consistent and accurate.

    I can't even get my boss to replace a nitrogen regulator I've had for nearly 10 years that's just started failing. :grin:

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    I guess I can say it now
    IMO the iDRSA Doug showed me a long time ago could crush a AK900 to itty bitty pieces. If some neanderthal wanted to gnaw on it they would loose their teeth!!!

  17. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by shellkamp View Post
    I was under the impression that the monitoring system Doug proposes essentially already exists in the building automaton world, but his sounds like a more affordable/more focused version.



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    Most basic automation systems - like the ones used for multi-site location monitoring and controlling only measure supply air, return air, outside air, and space temperature. A few also have space RH and CO2.

    Larger buildings and process industrial can monitor all sorts of things, but even then, they rely on someone noticing an issue.

    But having a system that more or less data logs the variables over a wide range of operations could be programmed to notify when something is outside of tolerance, such as KW per hour has real payback potential.


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  18. #91
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    I would buy a set. Wish I could replace the ones I have now, I'm due for a new pair or two. Don't give up Doug, you have people out there that like your product.

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