My Silly Newby Q RE: DV Cold Air Leak

[Mikeheel]

Sorry. I've searched the archives and read several threads but want to make sure I've got a decent handle on the info. Thanks for bearing with me.

First, the background: We live in central NC. Purchased a 10-yr-old Toll Brothers house earlier this year. Local builders typically just use direct vent fireplaces. Toll insisted on putting gas fireplace with "real" fireplace (so you could convert to wood-burning, if you wanted). For a variety of reasons (from aestetic to function), we wanted to convert to a direct vent. We hired the contractor who originally worked with the builder to install a new direct vent fireplace. It's a Heat&Glo model 80000TR-OAK-PI. In the process of installation, contractor had to replace marble surround (with a granite surround), marble hearth (with granite hearth), and mantle. Installation was completed last week (12/08). Installer capped the actual fireplace.

First problem: Cold air is leaking out from the unit. Outside temp is 32 degrees F tonight. Temp on the hearth immediately in front of the fireplace is 41 degrees. Draft is very noticeable. Hearth is cold to the touch. Granite surround is cold to the touch. Hardwood floor in front of hearth is cold to the touch. This was not a problem with fireplace prior to this installation.

Second problem: Fireplace has a remote control (RCT-MLT-II). However, neither remote nor wall switch always work to turn on flame or to turn off flame.

Third (more minor problem): Hearth squeaks quite a bit if you put weight on it.

Ok, my thoughts. As to the squeaking, I guess the best solution is to keep weight off it....

As for the remote, I'm guessing it would be a problem with the ingitor for the unit since the wall switch also doesn't work sometimes. I'm unclear how the ignitor relates to turning off the flame, though.

Regarding the cold air, I have a few guesses. One, perhaps the installer did not properly insulate the area upon tearing out the prior unit - particularly since this was a "real" chimney, too? I do not know enough about this unit to know whether it is just a very poorly insulated unit in and of itself (maybe the original was better insulated). Second, maybe the venting itself is not properly sealed or calibrated? I tend to doubt the issue is the gas line since this was not a problem before, but I supposed I could be wrong.

Prior to purchase, my wife told the contractor her primary concern was energy efficiency. She purchased the unit he recommended. He was aware of the construction of the chimney since he had handled the original construction.

We're trying to figure out how to have an intelligent conversation with the gentleman to make sure the problems are properly addressed. He seems like a good guy, but his contractors have seemed pretty sloppy.

The fireplace is "prettier." But now it doesn't work reliably and it bleeds cold air. Not exactly the combo we were going for.

Anyway, I'd appreciate any advice. Although I spent about an hour searching the archives tonight, I'm not sure I really understand all the major issues. In particular, I don't recall seeing any discussion of gas fireplaces that were converted to direct vent gas fireplaces.

Thanks in advance, and my apologies for my obvious ignorance.

Mike

[natgastech]

Pull the unit. The chimney is double bricked and when the vent was put through it is an opening to the space between the 2 layers which is not airtight. It can be tricky to solve this issue in the confined space of the fireplace and it's contours. Air is also likely coming down the flue/chimney and there may be a fresh air intake that should be sealed. In the end your contractor should fix it because he should have anticipated that parts would need insulation and a thermal break. Also he hired the installers. Unfortnately this will eat away any profits he made but thats what he gets when he is incapable of predicting the consequences of his actions. You better remind him to read up on the clearances to combustibles of the unit and venting before he tries to fix the problem and creates another. Good luck!

[Mikeheel]

Thanks for the tips. The fireplace is not brick, btw. So, if the space around the vent is the problem, it should be easier to fix, right?

Mike

[jtp10181]

Cold air could be either the glass is not clipped on correctly, or the did not properly insulate the wall behind the fireplace when they were closing it all up again.

The unit not turning on sometimes could be many things, a tech needs to check it out.

[hearthman]

prob.1: cold air- fix the house and you won't have cold air. The top of the house must be as tight as Tupperware with some passive infiltration down low. The installer should have "weatherized" the chase, which includes air sealing as well as insulation. Insulation alone does not stop air flow. In fact, they make A/C filters out of it. Insulation not covered by sheathing is only about 15% effective. It is also a fire hazard if it is not properly sheathed over to keep it off hot things. Lingo correction: a 'chimney is either masonry housing the 'flue' or it is a factory self contained chimney and flue such as with factory built fireplaces. If you have a factory built FP, it will be contained in a 'chase'--not a 'chimney'. FYI, if they pulled a wood burner and replaced it with a DV, they must fireblock off the chase per the IRC 602.8. This will stop much of the cold air infiltration but it is also for firesafety. Did you pull a permit and have it inspected?

Prob/2: RCT-MLT II and WSK inop.- simple fix. Choose one or the other but not both. If you are going to use the remote, have the wsk wires bundled up inside the lower compartment but do not try to connect them. Then, have the RCT properly installed and tested.

prob. 3: hearth extension squeaks- modern houses are built with green wood. They will shrink, warp, twist and move. Give it a year to settle then have that hearth extension bedded in thin set mortar. Inspect the framing underneath to see if it is properly supported. Toll Bros. usually pours a concrete cantilever hearth ext. even when it isn't needed. If so, you should have a solid foundation. If just TJI joists and T&G OSB subflooring, see below. Since this is a not woodburner and this particular model does not require floor protection, you do not have to use Micore or similar thermal floor protection. Therefore, you can use cementitious backerboard bedded in thinset to the subfloor then bed the granite slab in thinset as well. If there is any deflection in the subfloor, you hearth extension will crack one day.

You cannot pack insulation or *stuff* around the DV pipe. This pipe needs an air space to cool it. Packing insulation around it can burn the house down.

If the installer goofed up, oh, well. Maybe next time he'll be more diligent. You have an excellent fireplace and it was a good choice. Once it is properly installed, you should enjoy it for many yrs. read the manual to verify how they installed it. Have an NFI Certified pro inspect and service it. I would expect your original Fp was installed by FireSide Hearth & Home. Find out from Toll. If not, you can still call them for an inspection and service but at a fee. Their techs are usually better than most. I know of a really good one they have in Wis.
HTH,
Hearthman

[Mikeheel]

Thanks, guys.

And, yes, it was Fireside H&H. I have to say, they're letting us down on the customer service side so far; but I'm hopeful things can turn around soon. The information here at least helps us know what we're looking for, so maybe we can make it less frustrating for these guys to deal with us.

gracias,
Mike

[hearthman]

Mike, I'm sure someone on this forum, who works for FHH, will fwd. a note to the Greensboro office about your situation and get you a proper response. They ain't perfect by any measure nor is anyone else me included but they do usually step up to the plate. Be patient and work with them.

Meanwhile, there are things you can do to your house to mitigate the cold air infiltration while improving energy efficiency as I suggested. Seal upper level leaks while providing some makeup air down low.

Merry Christmas,
Hearthman

[Mikeheel]

Thanks again. Merry Christmas to you, too!

One more quick question: The guys seem to want to try to fix the problem w/o pulling the unit out. They want to come at it from behind. I get that it'd probably be cheaper for them to do it that way, but would that be acceptable or should we be firm about pulling the unit?

thx,
Mike

[jtp10181]

Thanks again. Merry Christmas to you, too!

One more quick question: The guys seem to want to try to fix the problem w/o pulling the unit out. They want to come at it from behind. I get that it'd probably be cheaper for them to do it that way, but would that be acceptable or should we be firm about pulling the unit?

thx,
Mike

That's how we do it (pull off siding and take wall apart from outside). Works great every time. People actually pay us to do this on old houses that were not sealed properly.

[Mikeheel]

Thanks! That's good to know.

Mike