Arzel / Hybrid system

[Swammy]

I have had a local HVAC contractor install a Carrier HP to complement my existing Armstrong oil fired forced hot air system, about 8 years old, non-varible speed fan.

The Carrier equipment:
25HPA536A0030010 R410 ALT REFRIG HEAT PUMP UNIT
CNPV3617ATA EVAP-COIL-PURON

My house is a ranch. The heating system had never properly distibuted the heat, with cold rooms at either end of the L-shaped layout. So, I decided to have a 4 zone Arzel retrofitted damper system installed, with the Heat Pump/Oil Furnace. The entire system is controled by the Arzel HeatpumPro system board.

BTW, the Arzel dampers have totally improved the comfort level throughout the entire house.

BUT...

#1. I have never seen the HP produce more than 90F LAT as reported on the Arzel system board. Is this correct? Should the HP deliver more that 90F at the coil?

#2. I'm still having nothing but problems with short-cycling.

With the OAT at 32F, which is also the balance point for the two systems, the heat pump comes on, runs for about two minutes. The LAT starts declining. The arzel board calls for more capacity staging. The oil heat comes on, but not as Emergency Heat, but as staged capacity.

Interestingly, the OAT sensor reports the temp rising by 5-8F with the Oil furnace firing. The oil heat runs until LAT approaches 120F, which is the safety cut-out setting for the Heat pump.

The fan continues to blow until the LAT reaches 93F.

The Heat Pump fires up. The OAT reported on the Arzel board declines from 38F to 32F. The LAT drops from 93F to 90F and the cycle repeats.

I'm concerned about the Arzel board wiring, OAT sensor(is this on the HP or is it separate for the Arzel board only), and why the Oil comes on as anything other than emergency heat.

I know the HP will not be able to keep up with demand at close the balance point, but I do not understand why the HP does not give me more than a 2 minute run. The stats are calling for only a degree or two not a 8 degree recovery.

#3. The Stats are Carrier performance Edge programibles. Zone 1 Stat, which is the master, the one where I can force emergency heat on, is flashing two bars. The Carrier error code has something to do with outside temp sensor, but my contractor says this is not a problem and has no bearing on the behavior of the Arzel board. Is this correct???

I have pictures of the wiring on the Arzel board and the wizard settings but I am not sure how to upload them here on the forum.

I've had the contractor out here several times and seems like he just doesn't see the problem. I know the Arzel board can handle much more complicated systems than mine. You would think setting up the Arzel board with a single stage HP with an oil furnace and non-varible speed fan would not be a problem.

I'd appreciate any help. I know my Contractor is still trying to work through this, but he needs some help and so do I!

This is no DIY. All I want to do is try to clearly relate to my contractor what I've observed. I'm just trying to understand what is going on and not sound to my contractor that I'm crying wolf.

Thanks...

[DanW13]

Do you have both the HP and the Oil furnace set for the same lock out temp ? Maybe need to have the HP locked out and the Oil come on with out the HP running at the sametime. As for the system short cycling it could be any number of things that need to be fixed, maybe duct issues, wiring of the zoning, or the HP or Oil furnace is oversized .... Ask your installer to look the entire system over as it could be something simple and is simply being overlooked which can happen.

[beenthere]

Something is wired wrong, or a setting is incorrect, and is set for electric aux heat.
Not sure that board can do dual fuel control.

[jramunni]

[/QUOTE]

My response to your questions are in RED text.
jcr

#1. I have never seen the HP produce more than 90F LAT as reported on the Arzel system board. Is this correct? Should the HP deliver more that 90F at the coil?

If the proper cfm is being moved through the HP coil you should see a approximately a 30 deg rise from return air temperature to LAT (Leaving Air Temperature) when the OAT is between 30 and 50 deg. Below 30 OAT you will start loosing temperature.

#2. I'm still having nothing but problems with short-cycling.

Be careful not to confuse a Defrost Cycle with short cycling. When a HP operates the outside coil will frost up and decrease it's ability to transfer heat from outside to inside. The heat pump will initiate a defrost cycle about every 90 min of run time if it senses frost build-up. This cycle will last anywhere from 5 to 10 minutes. Since this function actually switches the HP to the cooling cycle (with the outside fan cycling off) the oil furnace will come on to re-heat the supply air.


With the OAT at 32F, which is also the balance point for the two systems, the heat pump comes on, runs for about two minutes. The LAT starts declining. The Arzel board calls for more capacity staging. The oil heat comes on, but not as Emergency Heat, but as staged capacity.

This again might be a defrost cycle as described above or it could be due to a lack of heat provided by the heat pump. The Heat PumPro will allow the heat pump at minimum 6 minutes of run time (3 min for 1st stg & 3 min for 2nd stg) to achieve the desired "Heat Stage Threshold" temperature as set in the Set-Up Wizard.

Interestingly, the OAT sensor reports the temp rising by 5-8F with the Oil furnace firing. The oil heat runs until LAT approaches 120F, which is the safety cut-out setting for the Heat pump.

The oil furnace has an independent "Aux LAT High Limit" setting in the wizard that should be set to at least 130 deg.

The Heat Pump fires up. The OAT reported on the Arzel board declines from 38F to 32F. This might be due to the OAT sensor being located in the heat Pump and seeing a drop in temperature whenever the heat pump fan starts. I would recommend moving the OAT sensor away from the HP and under a deck or on the north side of the house.

The LAT drops from 93F to 90F and the cycle repeats.

I'm concerned about the Arzel board wiring, OAT sensor(is this on the HP or is it separate for the Arzel board only),
This is a component of the Arzel Heat PumPro board

and why the Oil comes on as anything other than emergency heat.
The oil furnace is used as an Auxiliary heat source, anytime the heat pump does not provide the LAT determined by the Heat PumPro it will go to the oil furnace for the source of heat to maintain set-point in the house.

I know the HP will not be able to keep up with demand at close the balance point, but I do not understand why the HP does not give me more than a 2 minute run. The stats are calling for only a degree or two not a 8 degree recovery.
This might be due to the sudden drop in OAT when the HP starts outside and drops the OAT reading below the "Balance Point".

#3. The Stats are Carrier performance Edge programmables. Zone 1 Stat, which is the master, the one where I can force emergency heat on, is flashing two bars. The Carrier error code has something to do with outside temp sensor, but my contractor says this is not a problem and has no bearing on the behavior of the Arzel board. Is this correct???
What does the Heat PumPro show zone 1 is calling for during this time? By pressing the blue "Enter" button one time it will show you the zone 1 input signals.

I have pictures of the wiring on the Arzel board and the wizard settings but I am not sure how to upload them here on the forum.

please email those to me at "joe@arzelzoning.com", I will look at the settings and give you some recommendations. The Heat PumPro should be providing you the opportunity to get most out of your heat pump and bringing on the oil furnace only when the LAT is not warm enough to heat the house or when the OAT drops below the "Balance Point". We have applications in the Northeast were the balance point on oil heat system that the Balance Point is being set as low as 20 deg. The HPPro will over-ride the BP and switch to oil if it detects too low of an LAT from the Heat pump.

Please advise your contractor to call our Technical Support Dept for some assistance. 800-611-8312.

Thanks...

My response to your questions are in RED text.
jcr

[Swammy]

I have some photo's of the Arzel wizard settings, zone #1 wiring, and the overall board wiring at:

[URL=http://s175.photobucket.com/albums/w157/Mike_Webb/?action=view&current=arzelboardwiring.jpg]

[URL=http://s175.photobucket.com/albums/w157/Mike_Webb/?action=view&current=hppsettings.jpg]

[URL=http://s175.photobucket.com/albums/w157/Mike_Webb/?action=view&current=zone1wiring.jpg]



Thanks again for your comments...

Swammy

[jramunni]

I would recommend that the Min Htg Supply temp setting be dropped to 90 deg, otherwise the HPPro will continually switch to the oil furnace since the HP is only giving you 90deg.

The 180 deg Aux LAT High Limit setting is too high and should be set for 150 max.

jcr

[Swammy]

JCR,

I'll run your suggestions by my contractor on the Software set-up...

I'll get a confirmation from him regarding the positioning of the OAT sensor.

I will confirm with him what the minimum output of the HP at the LAT sensor should be. Also, ask about the defrost cycle possibility.

Is it also possible to plug into the USB port and log on with a Terminal program inorder to record the calls and board response over time?

You might think that would save everyone alot of pain since I certainly don't expect my contractor to have a tech on site to observe how the system reacts over time and different weather circumstances. (I"m tired of doing it myself!)

I'm wondering if a printout of the recorded board activity over time or when the OAT is close to the balance point might help me communicate what is going on.

I haven't hit the cooling season yet!!! But first things first...

Again, I will say, the retro-fitted Arzel dampers have absolutely improved the comfort level of my home.

Great product...

[jramunni]

JCR,

Is it also possible to plug into the USB port and log on with a Terminal program in order to record the calls and board response over time?

You might think that would save everyone a lot of pain since I certainly don't expect my contractor to have a tech on site to observe how the system reacts over time and different weather circumstances. (I"m tired of doing it myself!)

I'm wondering if a printout of the recorded board activity over time or when the OAT is close to the balance point might help me communicate what is going on.

Yes... you can download data history that can be very helpful in the diagnosis of operating issues. The HPPro takes a snapshot of all operating functions every minute and can store up to 30 days of information.

You will need a lap top computer and I will need to send you the download software to accomplish this.

It would be very helpful if the contractor would assure that the heat pump is properly charged and operating at 100%.

What do you have your thermostats set for and do you have a set-back program?

Does your heat pump sit on the North, East, South or West side of your home?

jcr

[jramunni]

I also see that at Zone 1 they have W1 connected and a jumper between W1 and E. If the thermostat detects a two degree drop in room temp or if it is coming out of a setback period it will activate the W1 terminal and the HPPro will shut down the heat pump and initiate oil furnace operation immediately.

You might be able to configure the thermostat differently to only activate W1/E when you call for "Emergency Heat".

That would allow the HPPro to stage the oil furnace in only when the ODT drops below the balance Point or the LAT does not reach the "Min Htg Supply" temperature.

jcr

[Swammy]

Yes... you can download data history that can be very helpful in the diagnosis of operating issues. The HPPro takes a snapshot of all operating functions every minute and can store up to 30 days of information.

You will need a lap top computer and I will need to send you the download software to accomplish this.

I will email you. Perhaps you could attach the software in a reply...

It would be very helpful if the contractor would assure that the heat pump is properly charged and operating at 100%.

One for my list. My contractor is unavailble until after the holiday.

What do you have your thermostats set for and do you have a set-back program?

Currently we have the two main zones, Zone #3-Living(800 sq ft) and Zone 1-Bedroom/Office (700 sq ft) on a set-back.

Wake-66F
Day-64F
Eve-68F
Sleep-64F.

Originally set-back was 68F(awake) - 62F(asleep/at work). We found that even in milder temps (upper 40's lower 50's) the HP would run almost continuously for 3 or 4 hours to catch up.

The Smaller two zones, are set to hold at 55F. Zone 2-Guest Bed and Bath(450 sq ft) and Zone 4-Entertainment room (550 sq ft). When we have guests or entertain, we generally simply push the hold up to 68F.

From what I gather, from perusing the forums, the strategy to follow when operating at temps that the HP can handle, you DO NOT set back.

Not quite sure what to do with the Hybrid system?

Do you want to use a set-back program when you are burning oil almost continuously?

I guess I have to watch the weather and re-program as necessary?

Looks like somebody needs to add programing dependent on Temperature range forecast to get the most efficiency out of a Hybrid System. (Maybe the HPP needs wireless acess to the internet to pick up a local forcast and adjust as needed. I guess after a taste of $140 a barrel oil, nothing is simple any more!!!

Does your heat pump sit on the North, East, South or West side of your home?

The HP is situated on the Eastern Side of the House. I'm in Newark, DE. My house is in a heavily wooded area, with little direct sun in the area of the HP until later in the afternoon.

I also see that at Zone 1 they have W1 connected and a jumper between W1 and E. If the thermostat detects a two degree drop in room temp or if it is coming out of a setback period it will activate the W1 terminal and the HPPro will shut down the heat pump and initiate oil furnace operation immediately.

Perhaps this explains why I observed the Oil Furnace on when the OAT was 47F. I came home from work early one day and the Tstat program was staging up from 64F to 68F. That was what really made me wonder just how the heck is this HP saving me any money.


You might be able to configure the thermostat differently to only activate W1/E when you call for "Emergency Heat".

That would allow the HPPro to stage the oil furnace in only when the ODT drops below the balance Point or the LAT does not reach the "Min Htg Supply" temperature.

I really think what you describe immmediately above is where the HPPro wiring and settings need to be in my circumstances. I would also like to be able to force W1/E from the master Tstat when I want to stage up my entertainment room or guest bedroom quickly. That and I need to be sure that I'm getting all the BTU's possible out of the HP.

Oh, one other thing, I'm not sure that the Fan on the oil furnace is blowing as hard when the HP is running as when it is burning oil. Doesn't seem as loud. When the oil burner comes on, it runs for about a minute or so before the fan ramps up to high. The LAT just sits there until the fan ramps up and then the temp begins to rise. When the HP comes on I do hear the fan running, but is not as loud as when the oil burner is running and the LAT is rising. Could my low LAT when the HP is running be because I simply not getting enough CFM through the coil??? (maybe I'm just missing the sound of the oil burner motor when the HP is running).

Again, thanks for taking the time to respond to my gibberish!

Merry Chistmas, Happy Holidays to everyone!!!

[captube]

Merry Chistmas, Happy Holidays to everyone!!!

To you also

Your contractor with (jramunni's, help) will be able to correct the wiring issues and as you know you will enjoy the zoning system to its fullest.