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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
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    74

    Smile Estimating Cost to run heat pump vs. nat.

    About how much would it cost to run a 10 seer hotel style heat pump instead of an 80% AFU natural gas F.A.U. with an electric blower?

    California Electricity….. ~ $0.30 x Kwh
    California Gas………….... ~ $1.63 x Therm or CCF

    400 sq’ room w/ 2 un-insulated walls and 2 single pane windows.
    Mild climate in Southern California near Disney Land. Almost never below 32*F
    aprox 4 heating months

    Thanks for advice.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
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    The Twilight Zone
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    2,964
    Quote Originally Posted by heater99 View Post
    About how much would it cost to run a 10 seer hotel style heat pump instead of an 80% AFU natural gas F.A.U. with an electric blower?

    California Electricity….. ~ $0.30 x Kwh
    California Gas………….... ~ $1.63 x Therm or CCF

    400 sq’ room w/ 2 un-insulated walls and 2 single pane windows.
    Mild climate in Southern California near Disney Land. Almost never below 32*F
    aprox 4 heating months

    Thanks for advice.
    Not sure about the C.O.P. (Coefficient of Performance) range for a 10 SEER hotel style heat pump, but here's the math (plug in the right C.O.P. when you find it).

    Compare the cost of 1 million btu's of heat.

    Gas furnace with gas at $1.63 per therm, 80% efficient furnace:
    (1,000,000 / 103,000 btu per therm) x 1.63 / .8
    = $19.78

    Heat pump with electricity at 30 cents per kw-hr (ouch!!), C.O.P. = 3? at 40F:
    (1,000,000 / 3414 btu per kw-hr) x .3 / 3
    = $29.29

    In the above example, gas is 68% cheaper than the heat pump (if C.O.P. = 3 at 40F) for the same 1,000,000 btu's of heat.

    Your gas price is reasonable. Your electric price is outrageous.

    Good luck.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
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    74
    Quote Originally Posted by gary_g View Post
    In the above example, gas is 68% cheaper than the heat pump (if C.O.P. = 3 at 40F) for the same 1,000,000 btu's of heat.
    If Gas = $19.78 and Heat pump = $29.29 did you mean to say Gas is about 30% cheaper. Or am I missing something?

    PS. Also I was wandering if you included the cost of the electric used by the F.A.U.

    Thanks for the info.
    Last edited by heater99; 11-06-2008 at 02:44 PM. Reason: more questions

  4. #4
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    Jun 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by heater99 View Post
    If Gas = $19.78 and Heat pump = $29.29 did you mean to say Gas is about 30% cheaper. Or am I missing something?

    PS. Also I was wandering if you included the cost of the electric used by the F.A.U.

    Thanks for the info.
    My bust.

    Gas would be 32% cheaper.

    (29.29 - 19.78) / 29.29 = 32%

    Blower motor power costs not included, only the cost to produce the heat.

    Take care.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    74
    Would you assume that that 10,000,000 BTU,s would cover a winter season?

    Annual cost for gas ………….....= $197.80
    Annual cost for Heat pump…..= $292.90
    Difference…………….................= $105.00 per year.

    Cost of installing through wall Heat pump ………...= ~$Removed
    Cost of installing Gas F.A.U. + duct + gas line ….= ~$Removed
    Difference………………..………………………...................= ~$Removed

    Extra cost of Gas FAU …= $700
    Energy savings …………..= $105

    The heater will be financed.
    Diff of $700 x 6% = about $40 a year
    Add at least $15 a year to run the blower.
    Assuming no change in utility rates they would break even in about 14 years.

    Q1. Dose 10,000,000 BTU,s sound reasonable for a season?
    Q2. Dose this look right?


    No equipment pricing in posts please
    Last edited by HeyBob; 11-06-2008 at 05:37 PM.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Lancaster PA
    Posts
    68,125
    Gas furnace at 80% efficiency=$20.38 for gas to deliver 1,000,000 BTUs.
    If you include the heat from the blower motor, and the cost of electric for it.
    It comes out to $29.53 for 1,000,000 BTUs of deliver heat from an 80% gas furnace.

    A heat pump (at a COP of 3 ) with 3.5KW strip heat kit to temper the air during defrost, comes out to $29.29 to deliver 1,000,000 BTUs of heat, at temps requiring a defrost.

    The question is, will the HP PTAC your looking at have a COP of 3?
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  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Lancaster PA
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    68,125
    Quote Originally Posted by heater99 View Post
    Would you assume that that 10,000,000 BTU,s would cover a winter season?

    Cost of installing through wall Heat pump ………...= ~$xxxx.xx
    Cost of installing Gas F.A.U. + duct + gas line ….= ~$xxxx.xx
    Difference………………..………………………...................= ~$xxxx.xx

    Extra cost of Gas FAU …= $xxxx.xx
    Energy savings …………..= $xxxx.xx


    Q1. Dose 10,000,000 BTU,s sound reasonable for a season?
    Q2. Dose this look right?
    Edit the equipment and install prices out of your post, prices, and those kind of pricing questions are not allowed in this forum.
    Its in the rules, Thank you.
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  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Lancaster PA
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    Quote Originally Posted by gary_g View Post
    Not sure about the C.O.P. (Coefficient of Performance) range for a 10 SEER hotel style heat pump, but here's the math (plug in the right C.O.P. when you find it).

    Compare the cost of 1 million btu's of heat.

    Gas furnace with gas at $1.63 per therm, 80% efficient furnace:
    (1,000,000 / 103,000 btu per therm) x 1.63 / .8
    = $19.78

    A Therm is 100,000BTUs.


    Good luck.
    Or it wouldn't be a Therm.

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  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Poestenkill, NY
    Posts
    769
    Hotel Rooms have sporadic occupancy. If the room is actually often vacant with an aggressive set-back, the payback for gas would be sloooow. Different story if it's rented all teh time.

    ALso, this has everything to do with climate - does it get cold enough to need back up resistance? That changes everything...

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Howell, Michigan
    Posts
    16,176
    Quote Originally Posted by heater99 View Post
    Would you assume that that 10,000,000 BTU,s would cover a winter season?

    Annual cost for gas ………….....= $197.80
    Annual cost for Heat pump…..= $292.90
    Difference…………….................= $105.00 per year.

    Cost of installing through wall Heat pump ………...= ~$Removed
    Cost of installing Gas F.A.U. + duct + gas line ….= ~$Removed
    Difference………………..………………………...................= ~$Removed

    Extra cost of Gas FAU …= $700
    Energy savings …………..= $105

    The heater will be financed.
    Diff of $700 x 6% = about $40 a year
    Add at least $15 a year to run the blower.
    Assuming no change in utility rates they would break even in about 14 years.

    Q1. Dose 10,000,000 BTU,s sound reasonable for a season?
    Q2. Dose this look right?


    No equipment pricing in posts please


    Please read rules re' pricing of equipment, I have no issue with the discussion of energy savings etc. Equipment pricing varies in different areas of the country.

    Thanks!

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    74
    Quote Originally Posted by larobj63 View Post
    Hotel Rooms have sporadic occupancy.
    The room will be climate controlled year round.

    Quote Originally Posted by larobj63 View Post
    ALso, this has everything to do with climate - does it get cold enough to need back up resistance?
    The unit would not have backup strips
    The project is in Southern California near Disny Land.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    74
    Considering a Friedrich Twin Temp heat pump YS13L33
    http://www.friedrich.com/products/Mo...?model=YS13L33

    It is 11 EER.
    A COP rating is not available according to Friedrich’s tec. Support

    I don’t think more efficient PTAC’s are commercially available with a heat pump.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    74
    Quote Originally Posted by heater99 View Post
    Considering a Friedrich Twin Temp heat pump YS13L33 , 11 EER
    http://www.friedrich.com/products/Mo...?model=YS13L33
    Do you think this unit would have a COP of 3 or better?

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