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  1. #14
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    416
    So, EAC has been turned off for two days and although you feel better you clearly still feel DRY and air is still stale.

    And yes it's had to imagine needing to add humidity in Fla.

    I'll let the pros chime in exactly, but lets consider that you went from a 3.5 to 5 ton unit the fan speed has increased so you unit is moving more air. The return and supply ducts are pretty much unchanged, so if they leaked before, they leak now. As you mentioned you feel your home is leaky..

    So if the unit is moving more air could infiltration go up decreasing humidity and causing this dryness???

    But you say that air smells stale, which one would think is a sign of less infiltration.

    How about this. If she was to open one window an inch or so and report back whether she felt air being pushed out or pulled in when system is running... Would this bit of info help.

    Quite frankly, if your contractor doesn't have a simple hygrometer I'm not sure how much help he'll be with an IAQ (Indoor Air Quality) problem. Seriously consider buying you own at Radio Shack for $20. Target sometimes sells them even cheaper.

  2. #15
    So, while I'm waiting for Trane to answer me and for dealer to come, what should I do if they refuse to remove the Clean Effects Ozone filter? I've read and read on this ozone, and it's all very much negative, any quick Google search showed that to me today, and the definition of 'allergy' is 'hypersensitity to a substance' , so my doctor thinks if they want me to 'turn it down', are they trying to kill me or what? I don't think I want any filter at this point. My old system had UV light bulbs, and they are still good, (and I know expensive) and I have a backup set of bulbs, but the dealer says he cannot use them with this XLi16. Am I being lied to, or is the dealer being lazy, or being a crook, or is this my lot in life....having to pay $1000 for a harmful filter and $400 to even be able to take it out to clean?
    Why does it seem so damned hard to get something so obviously simple ?
    All I want is the thing removed, my money back, and the door put back on the way it was. Yes, I do want the static pressure reading and humidity level checked...but my God, how hard does this too have to be? Do I have any recourse?

  3. #16
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    4,902
    Quote Originally Posted by ArmyMom&Wife View Post
    Thank you both for your responses!!
    catmanacman,
    I'm not sure I understand what you're saying, with me knowing nothing about Hvac and my dealer being the professional, he's bound to ask me why should he turn down the "power level", WHAT power level to what?? The electrical power?? makes no sense... some other power level? and to what effect would it benefit? I'm very confused by your answer.

    small change,
    Are you saying that it IS possible to 'somehow remove' the filter, and that would then mean that my dealer just doesn't feel like doing it? Also, the only ductwork modification he had made,(that I know of) since we have a 3200 sq ft house and went from a 3.5 ton to a 5 ton unit, was he added 2 extra ducts in the far end of the house in our master bedroom and bath, because I never seemed to get any air over on that far side of the house.
    Also, I don't know what you mean by "his side of the story"....I don't know how to ask him 'his side' other than he told me we should try turning down the output of the clean-effects filter so it only produces a little bit of ozone....(maybe that's what catmanacman is talking about?) but that is what my doctor says makes no sense....if you're allergic to something it doesn't matter the quantity, it's the quality, and allergies to something mean allergies to any amount of that something.

    The other thing my family and I are noticing is that the air is stale/dry, but we are at least not sick. This is definitely more stale/dry and uncomfortable than our previous unit, even though it leaked and was an old system, and was very very inefficient, the air was not this stale. I have kept the windows closed now for over 15 hours, and I'm starting to notice how stale the air is. It's not bad once I air out the house, because right now outside is pure heaven...a cool 65 degrees and clear/sunny.
    I'm not trying to be a pain, but having just laid out 3 months of my husbands salary, for a (hopefully) once in a lifetime investment, I need this to be really great....not just a so-so system that makes me want to sleep in someone elses house and not mine. I've never been so frustrated with a purchase before!!
    Thanks again for your reply's.
    there is a power level setting on the clean effects that increases or decreases the level of ozone emissions and the charge level of collector cells

  4. #17
    I guess you didn't read where I wrote that my doctor, or anyone who has an allergy to something, doesn't need to be in contact with that subtance. How would turning it down, and therefore, getting a 'lower level' of ozone be good for me, when my family and I just got So bloody sick for 4 days, and our doctor says we must stay away from it? I don't get your answer. Are you saying I should keep the Clean Effects even though now that it is completely turned off and we feel fine, that I should turn it back on, but just at a lower level? Are you actually stating this?

  5. #18
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    4,902

    Hmm

    my bad

  6. #19
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Lincoln, Nebraska
    Posts
    1,051
    As you said you need to get the static pressure test done. I would wonder if they can't check humidity they might not have the equipment for the static test either. The duct most likely is to small now and that could cause alot of problems.

    Did they actually tell you that they could not or would not remove the filter? Is there some reason for this? Would it be possible for you to post some pictures of the install so it may make more sense to us?

    I also don't understand why they can't use your UV lights in conjuction with everything else. Again pictures would help.

    I wouldn't give up on a good media filter either. It will protect your new equipment and filter the air better for your house.

    Don't give up on your dealer yet. This (getting so sick from ozone) is a unusual problem from an air cleaner. Keep trying to work with them to see if this can be resolved and still keep a good relationship with them. I would think they would want a happy customer but give them some time to try to work things out. Have you talked to the owner directly? If not maybe a meeting face to face would help.
    Its a good Life!

  7. #20
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    416
    For what its worth (and this informational only, not a defense or otherwise)

    Trane claims their unit puts out 5 ppb (parts per billion) of ozone at the high voltage and 3 ppb at the low. And remember its not running continuous.

    As a point of comparison, the average outdoor ozone level in New Mexico is 40 to 60 ppb, around 10 times higher.

    The FDA recommends an indoor limit of 50 ppb.

    Just so you know, EACs have been around a long time and are built by multiple manufacturers. So there is a lot of experience with this technology. Its not new. The way Trane does it may be considered new.

  8. #21
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    The Twilight Zone
    Posts
    2,964
    Quote Originally Posted by ArmyMom&Wife View Post
    So, while I'm waiting for Trane to answer me and for dealer to come, what should I do if they refuse to remove the Clean Effects Ozone filter? I've read and read on this ozone, and it's all very much negative, any quick Google search showed that to me today, and the definition of 'allergy' is 'hypersensitity to a substance' , so my doctor thinks if they want me to 'turn it down', are they trying to kill me or what? I don't think I want any filter at this point. My old system had UV light bulbs, and they are still good, (and I know expensive) and I have a backup set of bulbs, but the dealer says he cannot use them with this XLi16. Am I being lied to, or is the dealer being lazy, or being a crook, or is this my lot in life....having to pay $1000 for a harmful filter and $400 to even be able to take it out to clean?
    Why does it seem so damned hard to get something so obviously simple ?
    All I want is the thing removed, my money back, and the door put back on the way it was. Yes, I do want the static pressure reading and humidity level checked...but my God, how hard does this too have to be? Do I have any recourse?
    Many replies are saying the same thing:
    - Remove the Clean Effects filter
    - Get a 4" media filter
    - Install a by-pass humidifier
    - Live happily ever after

    Take care

  9. #22
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Northeast Ohio
    Posts
    4,855
    Quote Originally Posted by wraujr View Post
    For what its worth (and this informational only, not a defense or otherwise)

    Trane claims their unit puts out 5 ppb (parts per billion) of ozone at the high voltage and 3 ppb at the low. And remember its not running continuous.

    As a point of comparison, the average outdoor ozone level in New Mexico is 40 to 60 ppb, around 10 times higher.

    The FDA recommends an indoor limit of 50 ppb.

    Just so you know, EACs have been around a long time and are built by multiple manufacturers. So there is a lot of experience with this technology. Its not new. The way Trane does it may be considered new.
    I have to agree with this take on the situation. You seem to have several issues rolling around here. Your home is obviously not "tight" so you should have plenty of air infiltration. I don't really understand or see a reason for the stale air or the perception of dry air, especially given your geographical location and the time of year. Get an inexpensive humidity weather gauge and see what the level is in your home. Have an air quality check done as well. Determine the ozone concentration level as well as radon. Upsizing from 3.5 ton to 5 may have created some duct system issues and may result in a decreased ability to remove humidity but I can't see where this should have changed anything from an air quality stand point with the exception of an increased risk of mold and mildew as a result of excess moisture. I don't have any experience with this particular air filtration devise but we have used Honeywell and Trion electronic air cleaners for years and never had this type of problem with the exception of one system that did result in an odor that was determined to be ozone related. We applied a step down resistor to the power supply of the air cleaner and rectified the problem. No one suffered from a health stand point. From what I've read about your particular piece of equipment, the existing casing should accept a media filter as is.
    A good HVAC tech knows how, an educated HVAC tech knows why!

    DEM


  10. #23
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Middle TN
    Posts
    57
    I agree with m kilgore, if he doesn’t have a hygrometer, than he won’t have the proper tools to take any other measurements, static pressure or IAQ. If you went up 1.5 tons and only had 2 runs added, then you will never see the efficiency you purchased! Your old duct system was DESIGNED for a 3.5 NOT a 5 ton. A basic rule of thumb is 400cfm for every ton, so a 3.5 ton duct system is designed for 1400 cubic feet per minute. Your 16 seer system got its seer rating with a properly matched duct systems. So your 5 ton needs 2000cfm NOT 1400cfm. The two runs he added will be minimal improvements. I (as a buyer in your shoes) would have your duct system changed to see the efficiency you paid for. Especially since you went from geo to an air-to-air heat pump. As far as your health issue, there should be no reason why he couldn’t add your uvc to the new system. And if there is no way to put the old one back on, then have a different model install that will work. Between that and a good quality 4inch filter it should take care of you Filtration needs. Ask your dealer if you can swap the filter you have for the above IAQ. I personally would not just install a humidifier without fixing everything else first. Then if it is indeed need, then install a True steam or some other model of humidifier. When you said you purchased a 2 speed, I assume a 2 stage system. If it is a 2 Stage system it will remove much more moisture than your existing system in the cooling mode. Maybe that is what your dealer was referring to when you discussed humidity control. Just stay in contact with your dealer and try to keep the relationship between the 2 of you respectful, Remember - He didn’t know you had a medical condition that would clash with the filtration. So give him time to correct everything that needs to be taken care of.

    P.S. As far as your "Once and a life time" investment, keep in mind, they don’t make them like they used to. Your average life expectancy is between 7 to 12 years on any new equipment.

    Just a thought for the trane dealers on here - I know that 2 stage Maytag products have Variable speed blower which controlled by a Honeywell IAQ will give you control of dehumidifying. And if you decided to add a humidifier than it can control that as well. Don’t know if it’s the same on the trane

  11. #24
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    4H: Hot, Humid Houston H.O.
    Posts
    3,304
    That Trane air handler is indeed variable speed, same as in my homeowner's house installed 2004 -- at the time getting the XL16i was an option I wanted to keep open (got the American Standard Allegiance 18 model in 2007). A dehumidistat is capable of slowing the airflow 20% in response to a need for dehumidification. Mine is set up this way.

    Any homeowner can buy a really cheap humidity meter at Walmart or similar store, I have collected a half dozen of them. It won't be highly accurate, but it works. Almost always the instrument includes a thermometer. When reporting the results, it helps a lot to give the temperature at the same time the humidity is read. People who know the science can do a lot more with both numbers, than with only the humidity number.

    I live in S.Texas which may not be as humid climate as Florida but it is definitely hot and humid. The idea of wanting or needing a humidifier in such a climate is hard for me to understand. If the original poster continues to want more humidity, please explain it to us when you get some readings. All my efforts in the warm 80% of the year, are focused on getting humidity *down*, not up. Just my experience.

    Best of luck -- Pstu

  12. #25
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    44

    Ozone ?

    This new unit has a two speed fan and the original post stated the installer set it to auto. If the system comes on in heat mode it would be on low speed. The electronic air cleaner is sensitive to air flow ( low air flow will produce more Ozone ) This is why the manufacturer has provisions to change power levels to match air flow ( CFM ) Before you scrap the air cleaner set the stat to on which should be high speed and try it for a day. I have seen this problem with the variable speed fan in Carrier units. Also the lower you have to go with the voltage to get rid of the Ozone the less efficient the air cleaner will be.

  13. #26
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    44

    Reply

    I have posted on your problem but fail to see it on my list. Do you see it? TMRCIN

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