permafrost??

[trane_stud]

I have a customer who is going to be putting an oil additive into his Trane CVHF called permafrost. We, with factory input, have advised against it but the customer insists claiming an increased efficiency of 19%. I am pretty sceptical of the increased efficiency, but we will see. I can see maybe with a gear driven chiller some efficiency may be gained, but I believe less than 1% efficiency loss is due to bearing drag on most of our centravac chillers. or so I have been told. I would appreciate any feedback if anyone has used this additive and has any comments or recommendations about it. Thanks.........................Scott

[Healey Nut]

You have advised him against it .
Do you have an all inclusive contract on the chiller ???
Advise him in writing that it is not recommended .
If it it his chiller with no all inclusive contract , fill yer hat do what you want when it blows up dont say we didnt warn you and move in the teardown equipment .
If you do have an all inclusive then its null and void due to use of non approved materials and be sure to put it in writing . JMHO

[trane_stud]

We do not have an all inclusive contract with them, just PM and we bill all repairs. They are a very large well known pharmacutical manufacture with about 15 large tonnage centrifrigals on-site. My service manager has drawn up papers stating our stance on the additive and basically have no liability for any future failures of the chiller. I would just like to now how this permafrost is supposed to add efficiency, or if anyone else has tried it. I find it hard to believe that Trane has never tested such additives if the efficiency claim is to be belived, and would not advise against if we did not think in may cause harm to the chiller

[Chiller Guy]

Who claims that a 19 % increase can be acheived? Will the claiment stand behind the use of their product and cover any damages that can be proved resulted from it's use? I doubt it! Iif you are losing 19% due to bearing drag (which I really doubt) it's time for new bearings.
If your customer refuses to heed the manufactures advise there is not much you can do except put it in writing.

[cntrlvalchiller]

Just recently read similar question in another area and according to stickerhead Trane had done a study and had advised against adding anything to oil otheer than good old trane 22....But as stated before ask for stickerhead to chime in.Usually centravacs run and run with good old oil failures usually due to op error or out of design conditions.If they run with-in tolerable limits and Joe somebody keeps his hands from tinkering they run for a long time,good luck

[jayguy]

let us say that you are in charge of Trane marketing and sales.

you have been pushing how energy effecient your chiller is.

if you could increase your chiller efficiency by 19% with just an oil change...would you do it? you betcha' would!

why hasn't Trane?

because 19% is not credible. 1-2%? that is pushing it, but possible. but at what other costs?

you could probably find 3-5% or better by spending some time on flow rates, cleaning tubes, optimizing refrigerant charge, fixing leaks, etc.

those are real issues.

good luck.

[drivewizard]

Sounds like snake oil, but, you may want to find the salesman that sold it to him and offer him/her a job in service sales!!!!!

[Vortech]

http://www.permafrostinfo.com/images...rsion_PDF2.pdf

makes you wonder but I still would not use it in a machine that cost so much, I d stick with what trane tells you to do.

-V-

[mtntom]

let us say that you are in charge of Trane marketing and sales.

you have been pushing how energy effecient your chiller is.

if you could increase your chiller efficiency by 19% with just an oil change...would you do it? you betcha' would!

why hasn't Trane?

because 19% is not credible. 1-2%? that is pushing it, but possible. but at what other costs?

you could probably find 3-5% or better by spending some time on flow rates, cleaning tubes, optimizing refrigerant charge, fixing leaks, etc.

those are real issues.

good luck.

I agree
#1 energy user in a office building- The chiller
#1 reason a particular chiller is purchased-operating cost
Trane spends major $$$ on design improvements just for 1% increase in efficiency (Like the three piece suction ell)
There is only a couple of percent differance in efficiency between brands
If they could increase eff. by 19% with an oil additive, they would do it in a heartbeat, would probably buy the rights to the products if they could.
I didn't check the website, but what I have usually found is that they check performance for a "baseline reading". Then they clean the condenser and maybe the evap (coils or tubes) and add their snake oil. Well what do you know, the machine is more efficient! Why? clean condensers and evaps!
Ive never seen one tested without the condenser cleaning. I wonder why?
Just maintain and operate the machine like the folks that have designed, built and improved the machine for 20 years recommend, you'll be "Good To Go"

[trane_stud]

I was on-site today to witness the addition of the additive to the chiller, a 1998 CVHE450, never has been overhauled, never a purge rate, purs like kitten 24/7, shutdown 3 days a year for annual maint, the most reliable chiller that I have ever worked on. 96oz oil out, 96oz of permafrost in, this was calculated off volume of oil in chiller. The rep claims increased heat transfer through tubes by removing the thin film of oil on the outside of the tubes, and removing "build-up" on outside of tubes. Now I have scrapped plenty of old chillers that did not have any oil on tubes or any build-up. He also said I would see my oil level in the sightglass increase as the oil washed off the tubes returns to the sump. After speaking with this guy for a few minutes I could tell he was full of BS, I dont think he even has the slightest clue how this chiller operates, or what the internal enviornment of a chiller is like with clean r-123 in it. This stuff sells for around 1000 dollars an oz, crazy if you ask me, especially since I was told for residential applications you add 1oz per ton. I will share the results of the teasting once they are complete if anone is interested...........................Scott

[trane_stud]

This chiller did not have any cond cleaning performed on it since feb of this year. I was also instructed by our factory chiller guru(JT) to add a lengthy disclaimer at the bottom of my job report regaurding Tranes stance on such additves and testing of additives by Trane at our factory.

[jayguy]

... I will share the results of the teasting once they are complete if anone is interested...

i am interested. i think that you will find what we all know. but i am still interested.

good luck.

[chillerfreak]

This chiller did not have any cond cleaning performed on it since feb of this year. I was also instructed by our factory chiller guru(JT) to add a lengthy disclaimer at the bottom of my job report regaurding Tranes stance on such additves and testing of additives by Trane at our factory.

How is Jerry doing? I am suprised he hasn't retired by now?

[techtalker]

Boy this stuff keeps on coming around in different forms !!

please see this link: http://www.refrigtech.com/magic.html

I've said other things about these types of additives in older threads. search for them.

[techtalker]

One of the main claims of this "snake oil" is that the "polarized molecules" of the additive bond to the heat transfer surfaces and improve boiling heat transfer performance by removing oil fouling from the tubes. To my knowledge, this physics has never been demonstrated in any controlled tests.
If there is "oil fouling" on our tubes, we would see a degradation in LTD over time as the chiller "fouls" with oil. However, we have never observed this. The tubes in the machines DO NOT FOUL WITH OIL, and hence, this benefit is non-existent.


The other claims these folks make about added lubrication benefits for the compressor are so outlandish that they have to be total nonsense. I have seen claims of improving mechanical efficiency to greater than 100%.

Most of theses additives contain chlorine as part of the chemical compounding. Would you want additional chlorine running around the unit? My guess is that it will start to break down the oil eventually, increasing the acid levels in the unit, and after a few years, eat away some of the bearing materials.

[Randy S.]

Stay away from the snake oil. You'd have a hard time finding the improvement, if indeed there really is any.

The greatest improvement to be found is in clean heat exchangers, correct flow rates for the application, well tuned AHU economizers, and not running the chiller when you really don't need to. If you're in part-load country, then add VFD compressors to the list, too.

I recently observed a 700 ton Carrier 19XRV making 54% tonnage at 38% KW.
The tower was running full out, though.

[Healey Nut]

1000 bucks an oz so even with my bad math thats a 96,000$ oil change. Im in the wrong buisness ????? Seriously if they claim a 19% increase in efficiency and the stuff was that good I think Trane would be using it . Also if the claims are real the "snake oil " manufacturer should be willing to put the stuff in for nothing and you can pay for it when you see your 19% payback . Yeah right..... I bet if you suggested that they wait for payment as soon as you see your 19% effeciency gain they would soon be singing a different tune . Ask them to put there claims in writing and if you dont see your 19% gain you dont pay ???????? good luck with that too .
Oil film on the tubes ...........what a complete bunch of BS these people clearly do not understand centravacs or the solvent cleaning properties of
R11 or R 123 .
Whats next the TV infomercial only $19.95 and if you call within the next 20mins we will double your order???????????
Only one thing left to say to that chiller owner ... SUCCCCCKKKKKERRRRRRRR

[stickerhead]

We have BIG rattle snakes in Texas. Watch out for that one! If he sells it, hire the man!

[9675]

unbeleaviable we at york had a customer put some of this snake oil in his machine with all the same claims almost 1 year later to the day machine scrambled complete tear down$$$$ thanks I agree though with some earlier post the engineers at the factory spend big money and time just to see 1% improvements but I have some ocean front property in Arizona any takers

[smccaff]

I am wanting to know if anyone out there has seen any positive results from using Permafrost. The company has tons of back up and positive claims from many of their customers.