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Thread: LON Trunk Gage?

  1. #1
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    LON Trunk Gage?

    We are laying out several LON trunks. The first and longest is an anticipated 5000' in daisy chained length. The 22 ga. LON is rated at 4600' if daisy chained. Using the 16 ga., is rated at about double the length of the 22ga.
    The 16 ga. is 3 times the cost of the 22ga.
    Question: Should we do every building in 16ga., anticipating future expansion? Or just use the costlier wire as needed? Which means possibly using repeaters in the future in the 22 ga. buildings.
    I'm leaning towards the 16 ga. LON wire everywhere. Not standardizing on large jobs can become expensive when the wrong spool is picked up.
    TIA,
    Jogas
    Four wheel therapy, my 1968 Camaro is gone and will be missed

  2. #2
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    I guess you would have to compare that to installing a switch or a router. Your devices are spaced that far apart? Normally you need another subnet before you get that distance.

    It seems to me even when we have shorter runs we still ended up planning routing or switching based on future density of controllers.

  3. #3
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    I would do 22 ga. then just by repeaters or better yet routers configured as repeaters or the LSwitch by Loytec.

    Now for future expansion - how likely do you think they will let you put devices on their Ethernet network? If they will then just throw in a few LIPs (another Loytec product that does not require special licensing) and now you went from the 22 ga. LON to Ethernet and back to LON. Your limited anyway to two channels per segment so you are going to need a LIP or some device to break up your segments anyway. Someone correct me if I am wrong here.

    Another thing to think about is speed of the data and how much data and what type (repeated, acknowledged). Data just won't travel as fast on the FT-10 as on the Ethernet/other higher speed channel type.

    Future expansion seems to always be just that. With the devices mentioned above the customer then can just pay for them when they actually do expand and you can standardize on 22 ga LON comm wire.
    "How it can be considered "Open" is beyond me. Calling it "voyeur-ed" would be more accurate." pka LeroyMac, SkyIsBlue, fka Freddy-B, Mongo, IndyBlue
    BIG Government = More Dependents
    "Any 'standard' would be great if it didn't get bastardised by corporate self interest." MatrixTransform
    http://threedevilskennel.com/ - not my website.
    Versatile Hunting Dog Federation - www.vhdf.org/


  4. #4
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    5000' and under 60 devices?
    I would still use a LPR-10 but only as a repeater (in and out on net-A) not using both net-A and net-B

    I would assume (I know the whole A@@ u and me thing) that with a bus of 5000' you would have more than 60 devices which would call for a repeater/router anyway.

  5. #5
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    I appreciate all the replies.
    Without mentioning prices, the cost of all of the 16 ga. Lon wire for the one 4 story building with the 5000' trunk will be less than one router repeater.
    Thoughts?
    Jogas
    Four wheel therapy, my 1968 Camaro is gone and will be missed

  6. #6
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    Pay me now or pay me later kind of a thing -

    Depends on how you want to bid - your bid will be quite higher with the heavier gage wire on initial install - and BTW - add some time to your wire pull time, heavier wire is not as easy to work with. Also we like the wire boxes - easier to work with and pack around, but the 16 ga. should be on a spool, which from my supplier is the only way you can get it. More setup time with the spools/reels than the boxes. The reel in a box is nice, but I haven't seen it yet for the 16 ga stuff.

    Also speed and device count. If your pull will have less than 60 devices at that length then you should be fine, but anymore you'll need a repeater/router/L-switch and that only doubles your pull length/device count, whichever comes first and then you'll have to go to a router. Keep in mind a slow network is hardly ever an acceptable thing.

    Also keep in mind the whole potential for noise issue - the longer the single channel the more likely you'll pick something up. If you do have noise and you put in an LSwitch or router configured as a repeater you can drastically cut the effect it has on your overall network.
    Last edited by crab master; 11-03-2008 at 06:35 PM.
    "How it can be considered "Open" is beyond me. Calling it "voyeur-ed" would be more accurate." pka LeroyMac, SkyIsBlue, fka Freddy-B, Mongo, IndyBlue
    BIG Government = More Dependents
    "Any 'standard' would be great if it didn't get bastardised by corporate self interest." MatrixTransform
    http://threedevilskennel.com/ - not my website.
    Versatile Hunting Dog Federation - www.vhdf.org/


  7. #7
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    And that was my point if he has over 60 devices he will need a repeater/router anyway which will increase his bus length, thus he can stick with the 22 ga.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by jogas View Post
    I appreciate all the replies.
    Without mentioning prices, the cost of all of the 16 ga. Lon wire for the one 4 story building with the 5000' trunk will be less than one router repeater.
    Thoughts?
    I think the extra labor involved with 16ga and the cost will be more expensive than installing a switch which will give you opportunity for additional nodes in the future without doing much more work....a switch is relatively inexpensive BTW.

    EDIT: put it this way.. A switch is less expensive than a guy for a day.

    Again, your 4 story building has less than 60 nodes but still has 5000 feet of wire? Something doesn't sound right to me.
    Last edited by sysint; 11-03-2008 at 06:44 PM.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by sysint View Post
    I think the extra labor involved with 16ga and the cost will be more expensive than installing a switch which will give you opportunity for additional nodes in the future without doing much more work....a switch is relatively inexpensive BTW.

    EDIT: put it this way.. A switch is less expensive than a guy for a day.

    Again, your 4 story building has less than 60 nodes but still has 5000 feet of wire? Something doesn't sound right to me.
    It's a college campus, classrooms, some with unit ventilators. I'll get a count.
    Thanks for the heads up.
    Jogas
    Four wheel therapy, my 1968 Camaro is gone and will be missed

  10. #10
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    Also FYI - this should help - http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=157263
    "How it can be considered "Open" is beyond me. Calling it "voyeur-ed" would be more accurate." pka LeroyMac, SkyIsBlue, fka Freddy-B, Mongo, IndyBlue
    BIG Government = More Dependents
    "Any 'standard' would be great if it didn't get bastardised by corporate self interest." MatrixTransform
    http://threedevilskennel.com/ - not my website.
    Versatile Hunting Dog Federation - www.vhdf.org/


  11. #11
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    Mar 2007
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    LON Bus

    Don't know your specific layout, but have you looked at the LON switch made by Loytec? Multiple channels from one device may simplify your network.

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