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  1. #14
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Westlake, Ohio
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    2,470
    Both the low 3rd stage and the low fire on modulating furnaces have been tested in the field to deliver only 38% efficiency. Familiar with a consumer that had 40% higher gas bills with his 90% modulating furnace than his neighbor with a single stage 90%. In fact after 2 years he has just had it removed. Some of the new modulating and staging furnaces have slowed their blowers down to keep the air warmer which is at least an improvement.

    Some new two stage furnaces are now bringing on high-fire first (wow lets produce the most heat when the house is the coldest) which is saving quite a bit more money because these furnaces don't spend anytime in low-fire.

    When someone states they saved after switching from a single stage to a two stage it usually means the single stage was really screwed up by whoever installed it or your new two-stage is running most of the time in high fire and that would be good.

    Sizing affects comfort more than efficiency. A furnace that is 100,000 btus versus one that is 50,000 btus use exactly the same amount of energy to heat if they are both operating at the same efficiciency. The 100,000 btu runs 50% less to heat the house.

    Only those contractors that do performance testing and use combustion analyzers on all jobs would know the truth. None of them have posted here yet but they will.

    Carrier Infinity is one with a new stat that does bring on high-fire first. Others have switches to jump out the staging(too many complaints).

    Variable speed blowers save lots of money and are only available on staging equipment. Therefore multi-stage equipment (90% only) needs to purchased and then set up properly in the field.

    Efficiency of furnaces is based more on a points system than actual testing. No furnace has ever been tested or rated in any firing rate other than high fire.
    captain CO

  2. #15
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Eastern PA
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    68,923
    Quote Originally Posted by jrbenny View Post
    Might want to read a bit about your new product line.

    Like I've mentioned, I really do not know the Luxaire line very well at all. I've been busy learning as much as I can about the ClimateMaster line and hydronics in general since these are better selling products for me at the moment. By the end of next week, I will be an expert on Luxaire. Better not be anyone dissing Luxaire after next week.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  3. #16
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Eastern PA
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    68,923
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Davis View Post
    Both the low 3rd stage and the low fire on modulating furnaces have been tested in the field to deliver only 38% efficiency. Familiar with a consumer that had 40% higher gas bills with his 90% modulating furnace than his neighbor with a single stage 90%. In fact after 2 years he has just had it removed. Some of the new modulating and staging furnaces have slowed their blowers down to keep the air warmer which is at least an improvement.

    Some new two stage furnaces are now bringing on high-fire first (wow lets produce the most heat when the house is the coldest) which is saving quite a bit more money because these furnaces don't spend anytime in low-fire.

    When someone states they saved after switching from a single stage to a two stage it usually means the single stage was really screwed up by whoever installed it or your new two-stage is running most of the time in high fire and that would be good.

    Sizing affects comfort more than efficiency. A furnace that is 100,000 btus versus one that is 50,000 btus use exactly the same amount of energy to heat if they are both operating at the same efficiciency. The 100,000 btu runs 50% less to heat the house.

    Only those contractors that do performance testing and use combustion analyzers on all jobs would know the truth. None of them have posted here yet but they will.

    Carrier Infinity is one with a new stat that does bring on high-fire first. Others have switches to jump out the staging(too many complaints).

    Variable speed blowers save lots of money and are only available on staging equipment. Therefore multi-stage equipment (90% only) needs to purchased and then set up properly in the field.

    Efficiency of furnaces is based more on a points system than actual testing. No furnace has ever been tested or rated in any firing rate other than high fire.
    Give us a break here Jim. For crying out loud, some of us have reports from hundreds of contractors stating that new 2 stage and modulating furnaces have been reported by their customers to have saved them money.

    When a new high efficiency furnace does not reduce gas bills, people like me hear about it pronto.

    Not every furnace has to have someone who has taken your course in order to function properly and to be efficient. Jeez Jim, give the rest of the world at least a little bit of credit for being able to function without you.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  4. #17
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Westlake, Ohio
    Posts
    2,470
    What are you doing up so late?

    You know I am not making this up!! Just in the last two weeks I have been out in the field testing brand new two stage and three stage equipment. If people are saving money with new furnaces operating at less than 50% efficiency in low fire, the old furnace had to be pretty screwed up. Bring on high-fire first and thats is another story.

    Did I mentioned most of the furnaces that are really bad aren't the ones you are familiar with??

    Old people have been complaining about new two-stage furnaces since the day they came out. Saving people 5% or 10% instead of 30%-40% makes it okay?? Like I said the old equipment had to be really messed up.

    I got a feeling that there are going to be alot more complaints this winter than in the past. The standard excuse will be it is colder and fuel costs more
    and that good enough.

    NO everyone doesn't have to take my course, because even a blind squirrel finds a nut now and then.

    I have not found one person in the country that knows how to set the blower speed on the furnace for heating until they attended my class or spoke to someone that did. I would think that would be important seeing how bad airflow causes many cracked heat exchangers.

    Combustion analyzers don't make equipment efficient, the person using it does. Not one manufacturer of analyzers teach how to maximize efficiency of equipment, so where would one learn??
    captain CO

  5. #18
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Westlake, Ohio
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    2,470
    Many blind squirrels have found this nut. But when I told them to move their tales out of their eyes they realized they weren't blind.
    captain CO

  6. #19
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Eastern PA
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    If I were a blind squirrel I would be able to find at least two nuts.

    I have been finding more and more contractors who are always concerned with the proper airflow of furnaces and always adjust airflow to a central point between the temperature rise extremes. Jim, I think you have become jaded because you only see the bad.

    I also am finding more and more contractors are actually setting gas pressures along with temperature rise on installation of furnaces. I cannot vouch for all manufacturer's reps, but everyone I have worked for since 1998 has been very diligent in teaching that furnaces are not plug and play appliances and that they need to be properly set up. Of course, some of us also disagree on what is proper set up.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  7. #20
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    Aug 2002
    Location
    Westlake, Ohio
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    See, like I said no one knows how to set up airflow correct on heating until they are taught. The only gas pressure that most contractors set is 3-1/2" which is hardly ever correct. If burner orifices were drilled accurately(not possible) and we could get 1050 btu out of every cubic foot of gas(never can happen) this would be correct. But they do wear pretty blue booties.
    captain CO

  8. #21
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Eastern PA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Davis View Post
    See, like I said no one knows how to set up airflow correct on heating until they are taught. The only gas pressure that most contractors set is 3-1/2" which is hardly ever correct. If burner orifices were drilled accurately(not possible) and we could get 1050 btu out of every cubic foot of gas(never can happen) this would be correct. But they do wear pretty blue booties.
    Draft is also never consistant as well as gas btu values are not consistant. Manufacturer's specifications allow a buffer for variances. Then again, this is old stuff between you and I.

    As for the blue booties, some are also red, let's not get political here. The booties offer the perception that the technician is professional and perception is reality in the mind of the consumer.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  9. #22
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    2,875
    Hmmmm....and to think I was under the impression that a BTU was a BTU....doesn't matter how many of them are flowing, it still takes the same amount of them to raise the temperature in a home. So in low fire, it runs longer....still uses just as much gas to get to 72 degrees.....In high fire, it doesn't run as long....still uses just as much gas to get to 72 degrees. I thought this was one of the first things they taught us about 2 stage furnaces....they don't save gas....they provide better comfort.



    I'm sure someone will be along soon to correct me......
    I need a new signature.....

  10. #23
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Tulsa, OK
    Posts
    975
    Seems odd that the Factory class I went to kept pushing "comfort" verses actual efficiencies!!

  11. #24
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    Aug 2002
    Location
    Westlake, Ohio
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    Quote Originally Posted by I_bend_metal View Post
    Hmmmm....and to think I was under the impression that a BTU was a BTU....doesn't matter how many of them are flowing, it still takes the same amount of them to raise the temperature in a home. So in low fire, it runs longer....still uses just as much gas to get to 72 degrees.....In high fire, it doesn't run as long....still uses just as much gas to get to 72 degrees. I thought this was one of the first things they taught us about 2 stage furnaces....they don't save gas....they provide better comfort.



    I'm sure someone will be along soon to correct me......
    Correct, a btu is a btu, but the actual operating efficiency determines how many btus are needed to heat a house. A furnace running at 50% efficiciency needs 100,000 btus input to accomplish this. A furnace running at 75% efficiency only need 75,000 btus input to accomplish the same thing.

    Low fire operates below 50% efficiency on all equipment tested in the field to date regardless of its rating.
    captain CO

  12. #25
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    Aug 2002
    Location
    Westlake, Ohio
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoBoTeq View Post
    Draft is also never consistant as well as gas btu values are not consistant. Manufacturer's specifications allow a buffer for variances. Then again, this is old stuff between you and I.

    As for the blue booties, some are also red, let's not get political here. The booties offer the perception that the technician is professional and perception is reality in the mind of the consumer.
    Do independents wear purple booties?

    Manufacturers allow buffers for more than variances. They know that 98% of contractors never perform actual testing in the field other than an occasional gas pressure test and take no chances and intentional over underfire, well, with a few exceptions.
    captain CO

  13. #26
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    North Richland Hills, Texas
    Posts
    14,914
    If more government is the answer, then it's a really stupid question.

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