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  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    Houston
    Posts
    29

    Receiver Opinion Wanted

    Worked on a York H2A360A46D split system this morning. It cools a church and the 1/4" copper for the remote suction service valve had cracked. The unit is above the evaporator. The unit was not flat, and still running, just not cooling properly. I repaired the crack and put in 60lbs of 22. All I had on my truck. The unit still isnt completly charged.
    It has a 100lb receiver that was field installed between the liquid line service valve and the drier on the exterior of the unit. The unit has 1 1/8" liquid line and 2 1/8" suction line. The lines are maybe a 75' run. I would guess the reason that the receiver was installed was to aid in pumpdown. The condensor would never hold all the refrigerant.
    But when there is a leak we are talking about perhaps as much as 100 lbs of extra refrigerant to charge this unit up. The drier is a 2 core 48 series replaecable core that has field installed valves on each side, and can be isolated.

    What are thoughts about removing this huge receiver and using recovery tanks to hold refrigerant if the unit ever needs to be pumped down in the future. Or if a leak developes on the high side it will need to be evacuated anyway.

    Glen

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Southern, CA
    Posts
    520
    If the LL solenoid is located just before the evap, I wouldn't think a receiver would be needed. Even less so, if set up for solenoid drop instead of pump down. But since it's there already and only needs to be filled a small amount to operate, I'd leave it until I could find out why it was added. There may be something else going on you're not aware of, and pulling it out “just because” might cause more problems than some extra gas when it leaks. One of those if it ain't broke, why fix it situations. Another thing might be without it, the system was closer to its limit than someone liked, the supply house didn't have a smaller one, so that's why you've got what's there.
    Last edited by Coolmaniac; 09-07-2008 at 05:54 PM.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Delaware
    Posts
    243
    I agree with both of you guy's but let me explain why.

    I have long been a proponent of getting rid of those recivers whenever possible. I have delt with some that looked like two 55 gal drums welded together and took a LOT of refrigerant. However, some of them were needed because of system design.
    That leads to the second issue (getting rid of it). Until you know the system and it's design, leave it in place. Perhaps you can remove it at some later date, but for now you will be the last guy to touch it and you should know where that leads.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    arlington, tx
    Posts
    225
    it may have been added for low ambient situations or a contractor just wanting to make some extra money i have seen alot of churches ripped off

  5. #5
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    Houston
    Posts
    29
    I will leave it for now. It has been there for 9 years. The unit installation was designed by either the original construction engineering firm, or the original HVAC sub contractor installing the equipmet. Since there are two solinoids at the evaporator, two unloaders on the compressor and it is most certian that the unit will be running in mild temperatures, possible it may be used for low load situations. It uses fan cycling and a varible speed choke coil for head pressure regulation.

    I just had reservations on the size of the thing. Never ran across a receiver this large on this size air conditioning system. I have seen refrigeration systems of comparable size compressors and copper runs with fan controls, smaller condensors and hot gas bypass that did not come near the size of this one.

    I have found and repaired other design issues with the duct installations and different condensing units on this building.
    Glen

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Southern, CA
    Posts
    520
    This thread reminded me of some systems worked on a while back. I was too busy at the time to worry about it, and not sure why now. But I did some work on some rooftop 100 ton Worthington built up systems, 7 per bldg, each inside a 25' square enclosure so no long pipe. A/C with NG duct heaters downstream, and every one had a 300 lb. receiver. (looked more like a horz propane storage tank.) My best guess is that it gave more runtime before shutdown due to a leak. These were built before the recovery thing hit the fan. 1960's most likely.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    arlington, tx
    Posts
    225
    more than likely it was for low temperature situations to keep the condensor flooded

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Delaware
    Posts
    243
    I agree with mechanicalgsxr about the low ambient thig. In the 60's and 70's several companies used the"Flooded Condenser" method of low ambient control. During the cool weather the refrigerant was packed in the condenser to cut down on heat rejection surface and keep the HP up. But when the weather warmed and you needed that heat rejection surface,where did the ref go? Receiver (storage tank).

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Southern, CA
    Posts
    520
    I never heard of a flooded tower, cept when the float sticks. Musta been some real cautious design types, as we rarely see it get under 50 round here. But I've yet to hear better reason for it.
    Last edited by Coolmaniac; 09-10-2008 at 05:42 PM.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Delaware
    Posts
    243
    Coolmanic,

    I cannot recall a flooded tower either. These units were air cooled condensers and when you had to flood a 150 -200 ton condenser it required a lot of refrigerant. If one of the suckers sprung a leak ( which they did due to all the solder joints) you would stop by the supply house for 5 or 6 - 125 pounders to get you back on line.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    arlington, tx
    Posts
    225
    Quote Originally Posted by Chiller Guy View Post
    Coolmanic,

    I cannot recall a flooded tower either. These units were air cooled condensers and when you had to flood a 150 -200 ton condenser it required a lot of refrigerant. If one of the suckers sprung a leak ( which they did due to all the solder joints) you would stop by the supply house for 5 or 6 - 125 pounders to get you back on line.
    yes sir i pulled 450 lbs. out of 1 last week granted it was overcharged by about 150 lbs.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Greeneville, Tennessee
    Posts
    344

    Old School

    We always relied on the receiver to hold the charge during pump down for major system repairs! Normally sized to hold 80% of the total system charge.

    Some older plants in the 50's and 60's ran R-12 using Carrier 5H open drive compressors, I have rebuilt and maintained a few of these. The receiver tank for R-12 was larger than needed for R-22. Some conversions to R-22 from R-12, had oversized receiver vessels, but that was a extra benefit! Watch out for the open drive motor HP to R-22! The 5H120 was my favorite!

    The clear liquid line sight glass plus the subcooling added charge was what was needed for reliable all season operation. Short lived R-500 had a twist to this, but easily overcome with experience.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Southern, CA
    Posts
    520
    Uuuuh Chiller,

    you would stop by the supply house for 5 or 6 - 125 pounders to get you back on line.
    Hope I never piss you off, its all I can do to get 50 pounders on the roof.






    I know you've got a hoist, I couldn't resist

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