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  1. #14
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    20
    That's is a bi directional drier that came with the Acadia unit. Humidifier is not required. I'll see how it works without. I can't really figure out the benefit of one at this point.

    I still don't get the gas line question when the gas has to do with the old unit. What am I missing here? I'm not even sure what before means in this case. If you look at the floor the drip leg looks to be before the gas shut off in the propane furnace.

  2. #15
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    68,789
    Its not that it has anything to do with the heat pump install its self.

    Its just that its not right.
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  3. #16
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    6,841
    We've taken the class on the Acadia and it definitely has it's place in the industry. But I don't recommend it to my clients. There's a calculator on their website that you can use to plug in your own estimates of costs for oil, gas, propane, electricity and it will tell you how much you can save. In our area, it's about 41% less than oil. Here's the rub in the middle climates. There is 10KW of 2-stage electric heat in the standard unit. 2KW is used as 2nd stage heat, beginning at about 25^F. As the OAT gets colder, the 3rd stage is the "Booster Compressor" and 4th stage is the full 10KW 2nd stage strip heater. So above 25^F, it's a basic HP. From 25^F down to about 15^F, it's a basic HP with 2KW of strip heat. It isn't until the OAT gets really cold that the 3rd stage "booster compressor" kicks in and uses its hot gas discharge to mix with the low side vapor of the primary compressor. That's when the delivery temp spikes up higher, the total capacity of the system goes above nominal rating and it is NOT a basic HP anymore.

    So for those who live in areas that see frequent temps below 15^F and want to eliminate fossil fuel from you heating diet, it's a great piece of machinery. For those who live in temperate climates where the OAT is seldom below 25^F, it's a regular HP. For those who would like to wein themselves off fossil fuels and operating cost is not the driving issue, it's also a good way to go. But for those who live in areas where the OAT in winter is between 15-25^F, the savings isn't as dramatic as it would seem. So it really depends on the motivation of the client and the climate of the installation as to what makes the most sense for people. In our climate, I can't in good conscience suggest that people spend the extra money for the unit. I can save them the same amount of money with a higher efficiency (the Acadia is rated 14-SEER) standard air-to-air HP used as a dual fuel system.
    If YOU want change, YOU have to first change.

    If you are waiting for the 'other guy' to change first, just remember, you're the 'other guy's' other guy. To continue to expect real change when you keep acting the same way as always, is folly. Won't happen. Real change will only happen when a majority of the people change the way they vote!

  4. #17
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    20
    Very informative and logical. I fall into the more sever weather category (5,500 feet in Northern Nevada). What is interesting the cost to retro my carrier system with a heat pump exceeded that of the new Acadia system! I could have gone with a new hybrid system for about the same cost of the Acadia yet I would lose the cold weather application and still have to use propane which I want to avoid, due to the unregulated status and spikes in cost due as a result of being a petroleum bi-product.

  5. #18
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    SE PA
    Posts
    183
    Quote Originally Posted by skippedover View Post
    We've taken the class on the Acadia and it definitely has it's place in the industry. But I don't recommend it to my clients. There's a calculator on their website that you can use to plug in your own estimates of costs for oil, gas, propane, electricity and it will tell you how much you can save. In our area, it's about 41% less than oil. Here's the rub in the middle climates. There is 10KW of 2-stage electric heat in the standard unit. 2KW is used as 2nd stage heat, beginning at about 25^F. As the OAT gets colder, the 3rd stage is the "Booster Compressor" and 4th stage is the full 10KW 2nd stage strip heater. So above 25^F, it's a basic HP. From 25^F down to about 15^F, it's a basic HP with 2KW of strip heat. It isn't until the OAT gets really cold that the 3rd stage "booster compressor" kicks in and uses its hot gas discharge to mix with the low side vapor of the primary compressor. That's when the delivery temp spikes up higher, the total capacity of the system goes above nominal rating and it is NOT a basic HP anymore.

    So for those who live in areas that see frequent temps below 15^F and want to eliminate fossil fuel from you heating diet, it's a great piece of machinery. For those who live in temperate climates where the OAT is seldom below 25^F, it's a regular HP. For those who would like to wein themselves off fossil fuels and operating cost is not the driving issue, it's also a good way to go. But for those who live in areas where the OAT in winter is between 15-25^F, the savings isn't as dramatic as it would seem. So it really depends on the motivation of the client and the climate of the installation as to what makes the most sense for people. In our climate, I can't in good conscience suggest that people spend the extra money for the unit. I can save them the same amount of money with a higher efficiency (the Acadia is rated 14-SEER) standard air-to-air HP used as a dual fuel system.
    Excellent post.

    Would be interesting to see break-even comparisons with varying assumptions of fossil fuel prices. Recent pull backs in fossil fuel prices, which trickle in to electricity rates for many folks, may keep people from "high tech" solutions. However, I think it's safe to assume fossil fuel AND elec rates go higher over time, perhaps faster than overall inflation....so the more one can reduce their need for energy in general (ie, lower operating costs)....the better. But it sure becomes a tougher sell as energy prices recede.

  6. #19
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Rochester NY
    Posts
    4,763
    Quote Originally Posted by skippedover View Post
    We've taken the class on the Acadia and it definitely has it's place in the industry. But I don't recommend it to my clients. There's a calculator on their website that you can use to plug in your own estimates of costs for oil, gas, propane, electricity and it will tell you how much you can save. In our area, it's about 41% less than oil. Here's the rub in the middle climates. There is 10KW of 2-stage electric heat in the standard unit. 2KW is used as 2nd stage heat, beginning at about 25^F. As the OAT gets colder, the 3rd stage is the "Booster Compressor" and 4th stage is the full 10KW 2nd stage strip heater. So above 25^F, it's a basic HP. From 25^F down to about 15^F, it's a basic HP with 2KW of strip heat. It isn't until the OAT gets really cold that the 3rd stage "booster compressor" kicks in and uses its hot gas discharge to mix with the low side vapor of the primary compressor. That's when the delivery temp spikes up higher, the total capacity of the system goes above nominal rating and it is NOT a basic HP anymore.

    So for those who live in areas that see frequent temps below 15^F and want to eliminate fossil fuel from you heating diet, it's a great piece of machinery. For those who live in temperate climates where the OAT is seldom below 25^F, it's a regular HP. For those who would like to wein themselves off fossil fuels and operating cost is not the driving issue, it's also a good way to go. But for those who live in areas where the OAT in winter is between 15-25^F, the savings isn't as dramatic as it would seem. So it really depends on the motivation of the client and the climate of the installation as to what makes the most sense for people. In our climate, I can't in good conscience suggest that people spend the extra money for the unit. I can save them the same amount of money with a higher efficiency (the Acadia is rated 14-SEER) standard air-to-air HP used as a dual fuel system.
    NICE! I'm taking the class Wednesday, so this is good to see!

  7. #20
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    The Twilight Zone
    Posts
    2,964
    Quote Originally Posted by skippedover View Post
    There is 10KW of 2-stage electric heat in the standard unit. 2KW is used as 2nd stage heat, beginning at about 25^F. As the OAT gets colder, the 3rd stage is the "Booster Compressor" and 4th stage is the full 10KW 2nd stage strip heater.
    Hmmm. Their test results sheet states "Recommended 1st stage resistance heat 4.8 kw". There's also a note at the bottom that says "Mode 4 is supplimented by 4.8 kw of staged resistance heat". Makes you think there is only 4.8 kw of strip heat. It must use the 10 kw strips when the unit goes into a defrost cycle.

    http://www.gotohallowell.com/assets/...hrenheitLR.pdf

  8. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by gary_g View Post
    Hmmm. Their test results sheet states "Recommended 1st stage resistance heat 4.8 kw". There's also a note at the bottom that says "Mode 4 is supplimented by 4.8 kw of staged resistance heat". Makes you think there is only 4.8 kw of strip heat. It must use the 10 kw strips when the unit goes into a defrost cycle.

    http://www.gotohallowell.com/assets/...hrenheitLR.pdf
    No. Check the wiring diagrams and the air handler spec sheets. The outdoor unit only has control over the W1 input to air handler. The W2 input is controlled by the tstat.

    It is a little bit weird how it works. Below 10°F you, in a manner of speaking, lose 2nd stage control of the heat pump, and to fake it out the controller board inside the Acadia outdoor unit brings online the first stage of strip heat. Perhaps it is better to think of it has a 4 stage system presented to the tstat as a 3 stage?

  9. #22
    Very interesting. I was about to get an Acadia, but am starting to think otherwise. Information overload for sure. Their new literature I picked up in Bangor states they're going to have a 2ton unit as well. A lot of their numbers indicate that there is a 2.5kW heat package as well as a 4.8kW heat package which operate together (if I can figure out all their numbers).

    Does the Acadia NOT WORK without the use of the aux heat?
    According to my weather stats I only have ~10 days a year it gets below 10F, so I'm thinking the Acadia might be a little overkill, especially with the cost difference.

    What I don't really understand is that according to their specs the 3T Acadia has a HSPF of 9.6, whereas something like a 3T 16 SEER Amana has an HSPF of 9.7 or so... with those numbers why would you go with an Acadia over the Amana?

  10. #23
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    20
    My understanding is Aux heat kicks in during the short defrost cycle and when it is really cold. Hallowell claims they are getting new certifications for their units and you cannot compare the ratings since the other units are not efficient in below zero temps. For me the cost was neutralized as noted. The electric bill this winter will be the determining factor.

  11. #24
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    The Twilight Zone
    Posts
    2,964
    Quote Originally Posted by kvanbrandt View Post
    What I don't really understand is that according to their specs the 3T Acadia has a HSPF of 9.6, whereas something like a 3T 16 SEER Amana has an HSPF of 9.7 or so... with those numbers why would you go with an Acadia over the Amana?
    I believe that Hallowell is trying to compete against the cost of a geothermal system. A system that can provide "cheap" heat without the cost of having to run all of the underground piping, or for locations that don't have the area to run the piping. Kind of a "poor man's" geothermal.

    The Hallowell would also make sense for people in geographical areas with brutally cold winters that are trying to get off of oil or propane heat.

    What worries me is the longevity of the compressors. Their 5 year warranty on the compressors is a little weak.

    Take care.

  12. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by DUBLR View Post
    Hallowell claims they are getting new certifications for their units and you cannot compare the ratings since the other units are not efficient in below zero temps.
    Never mind the efficiency when trying to compare the Hallowell unit to other air2air heatpumps. It is when you plot Btu output vs outdoor temp that the picture starts to clear up as to why the Acadia is the better product (for certain climates only!).

  13. #26
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    68,789
    High BTU putput at low efficiency, is no better then high efficiency and low BTU output.

    The graph should chart both btu output, and cost. To determine if a Hallowell is worth while.
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