1470 Square Foot not cool from day one - Page 2
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  1. #14
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Princeton, NJ
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    581
    Quote Originally Posted by will_t_greens View Post
    Return - 10 x18 running horizontally to reach return registers throughout house with an additional 3.5 x 36 in-wall cavity tied in immediately above the final vertical drop to the filter box attached to the furnace.
    Return sounds kind of small to me. Is your return drop 10 x 18. Mine was 10 x 24 and was too small for my 4 ton.

    Can you post photos of the return and supply ducts right at the furnace?

    Key1
    In the land of the blind.....the man with one eye is king....

  2. #15
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Norfolk
    Posts
    13
    TO small of ac system sounds like with the ceilings u have

  3. #16
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Fort Worth, TX
    Posts
    11,273
    Quote Originally Posted by udarrell View Post
    Instead of constantly raising the SEER level of air-conditioners' maybe we need a building & HVAC Code requiring that every home have a documented manual J, & the CFM delivery of the blower/duct system with those documents available at all times.

    If we are going to get serious about Energy Conservation, there ought to be some government help in these areas at the county & township levels. The government & the energy provider's should all be actively involved in authentic Energy Conservation programs & actions!

    As beenthere stated, I also doubt you are getting near the 1200-CFM rating of the air handler. - Darrell
    An article in the July issue of Contracting Business would agree with you on this point, Darrell. Continual pressure to bump up SEER ratings, but no pressure to ensure installed systems deliver anything near their rated efficiency levels.

    Here in Texas, electricity deregulation has killed any incentive for any one utlitiy to offer rebates or discounts for energy efficiency upgrades. In my area, most of the providers buy their electricity from the same source, sent over the same infrastructure. All they care about is selling kilowatts at a fraction per kilowatt less than the other guy. The wholesaler enjoys income from selling its singular product to many different buyers, who then option how far to mark it up for the consumer. Therefore, where's the incentive for a utility provider to approach its customers and say, "Hey, if you reduce your usage by improving the thermal envelope of your home, we'll rebate x dollars, since by you doing this, we won't need to build another power plant."

    All the "works on paper" guys look for is a number to push through legislation. We would be better served, far better, by ENFORCED standards for the construction and mechanical disciplines in regard to energy efficiency.

  4. #17
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Office and warehouse in both Crystal River & New Port Richey ,FL
    Posts
    18,836
    "Return - 10 x18 running horizontally to reach return registers throughout house with an additional 3.5 x 36 in-wall cavity tied in immediately above the final vertical drop to the filter box attached to the furnace."

    Wall cavities ,in our area,are often connected to some place outside the conditioned area,pulling in outdoor air.

    Our current code prevents using wall cavities,but theres quite a few old homes with them and many are leakers.

    I'd look closely ,at that return.Mirror and a flashlight might help to see if it's sealed.Plus checking the temp. of the air being pulled from that space,on a hot day,will tell.

  5. #18
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    SW Wisconsin
    Posts
    4,792

    Everyone Wins Bigtime When We Do Things RIGHT

    Quote Originally Posted by shophound View Post
    An article in the July issue of Contracting Business would agree with you on this point, Darrell. Continual pressure to bump up SEER ratings, but no pressure to ensure installed systems deliver anything near their rated efficiency levels.

    Here in Texas, electricity deregulation has killed any incentive for any one utlitiy to offer rebates or discounts for energy efficiency upgrades. In my area, most of the providers buy their electricity from the same source, sent over the same infrastructure. All they care about is selling kilowatts at a fraction per kilowatt less than the other guy. The wholesaler enjoys income from selling its singular product to many different buyers, who then option how far to mark it up for the consumer. Therefore, where's the incentive for a utility provider to approach its customers and say, "Hey, if you reduce your usage by improving the thermal envelope of your home, we'll rebate x dollars, since by you doing this, we won't need to build another power plant."

    All the "works on paper" guys look for is a number to push through legislation. We would be better served, far better, by ENFORCED standards for the construction and mechanical disciplines in regard to energy efficiency.
    Well,that is good news.
    Earlier today I sent an e-mail to my state assemblyman asking him to provide HVAC Energy Conservation legislative help & oversight on the county & university extension levels.

    There is nothing, NO information, No availability of test instruments & no enforced codes. There are major problems in these areas that have to be rectified ASAP.

    I need to do some research because I don't know if they need to establish an Energy Conservation committee in the WI legislature.

    Every contractor that does things RIGHT will get a lot more business! When done right, the amount of energy & utility bill savings would stagger your imagination. Everyone wins when we do things right!

    There is talk about federal proposals to raise the SEER Ratings way up again!
    That could create some major problems for contractors, & users from an afford-ability factor.

    I will leave to the rest of you, for now, to cite all the problems that a minimum of 20-SEER could cause us. For countless reasons that could cost contractors a lot of business & end up being a crazy nightmare mess.

    Is there a link to the July article? I didn't see one, need to read that article. http://www.contractingbusiness.com/
    Thanks a million for the info shophound.
    - Darrell

  6. #19
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    North Richland Hills, Texas
    Posts
    14,914
    Quote Originally Posted by dash View Post
    With the system running,all exhaust fans and clothes dryer off,crack the door to the garage,use a candle to see if air is flowing in or out of the home,if it is ,you have duct leaks.
    What if the leakage is roughly equal between the supply and return?

    If more government is the answer, then it's a really stupid question.

  7. #20
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    5,298
    There's nothing anybody here can offer you except their sympathy. There are way too many possibilities to cover by mere conversation with you to give you any idea what the real problem might be. Without numbers there's nothing to go on. Period. Endless discussions about duct issues are pointless if in fact the problem isn't duct related. Could just be low on freon for all we know. Good luck.

  8. #21
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Office and warehouse in both Crystal River & New Port Richey ,FL
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    18,836
    Quote Originally Posted by mark beiser View Post
    What if the leakage is roughly equal between the supply and return?

    You're correct if they are equal,no air moves,plus 100 cfms supply and 150 cfms return leakage would only show the 50 cfms,not saying you'd measure them,just less air would move.

    You test,then retest with return(s) patrtially blocked at the grilles,to see the diference.

  9. #22
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    southern illinois
    Posts
    5,522
    100 outside and 80 inside is about what it's going to do in my opinion.....how many days are you at 100 in kansas?....i would think you needed a bigger unit if you want to keep it at 70 inside when it is 100 outside....

  10. #23
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    The Beach
    Posts
    670

    Confused Not Cooling

    Sounds like the trouble is in the duct sizing and the fan speed. No way should the duct be sized for a 4 ton unit.
    Blue Fox

  11. #24
    Update:

    An energy audit was performed last week by an HVAC/plumbing company that offers the service. After testing infiltration, duct leakage, and completing a Manual J, they provided some results. They showed approximately 7,000 BTU of loss due to duct leakage, but about half of that leakage was in the supply ducts that leak into a conditioned space in the basement. They believed the return leakage was drawing some hot air from the attic space past the top plates and drywall since no caps seal the return air vents in the walls. My level of infiltration rated my house as "Loose". My AC is also undersized since the Manual J showed a load of 38,000 BTUs. With a theoretical rating of 36,000 BTU minus 7,000 from duct leakage, my system is doing no more than 29,000, placing me at a deficit. Infrared imaging also showed substantial heat coming through an east facing bedroom that is always much hotter than other rooms. The suggestions were for me to close the leaks, do what I can to stop the heat gain in the one hot bedroom, and at least replace the unit with a newer, more efficient 3 1/2 ton coil/condenser, but was told my duct was adequate for 4 tons but would would need a higher CFM furnace. I told him I was already supplementing with a 9,000 BTU floor unit in the hottest bedroom, but he said he would be hesitant to go all the way to 4 tons.

  12. #25
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Austin, TX
    Posts
    869
    If that wall is a south or west facing wall.
    Long term: Plant a tree on that side of the house to shade that side of the house.
    Short term: Build a trellis on that side of the house to provide shade.
    I am for doing good to the poor, but...I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. I observed...that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer.
    ― Benjamin Franklin

  13. #26
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Lancaster PA
    Posts
    67,602
    Improve your homes envolope first.
    Then duct system leaks.

    Then you won't need a larger more expensive to operate A/C.
    Contractor locator map

    How-to-apply-for-Professional

    How many times must one fix something before it is fixed?

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