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  1. #66
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    windy city
    Posts
    4,439
    itsme - great reply. your last paragraph, - never gave it a thought, but now reading it, scares the @#$% outta me

  2. #67
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Area 51
    Posts
    984
    Quote Originally Posted by jim2005 View Post
    I have worked non-Union my whole life and I have recently taken a job were i am now the boss at a Union shop. I know how long this job would have taken me but I am told that I am not being unrealistic, what are your thoughts?
    I am not asking for a price or want to know how to do this just job, but your experience on how long a valve plate replacement would take for you to complete if the job went smoothly, and if it did not go smoothly the quote covered that issue.

    The Job...

    It’s a built up system with an O6E compressor.

    (1) Replace all 3 valves plates, (top, left, right)
    (2) Replace the oil
    (3) Replace the pressure relief
    (4) Replace the (2) 75Amp contactors
    (5) Start and check operation, no other issues and leave.
    (6) The valve plates have core charges and need to be returned

    • The building elevator will take you up the top floor you will have to schlep up 20 steeps to the roof.
    • You pick up your needed parts (2) days earlier while on another job.
    • The drier was not replaced.
    • The compressor was not painted when the work was completed.
    • Mechanical room was left broom swept clean.
    • All other normal procedures were followed.
    • This is your account were you have performed the maintenance for years so you know the system and exactly how it works.
    • Compressor was valved off.


    What is the reason the work is being done? Is it just maintenance to prevent trouble in the future or is there a current problem. Because if you replace three valve plates and the compressor has a worn piston, worn cylinder, worn main bearing or a worn connection along the crankshaft all the work you will have done will be in vain. I would give the customer an estimate to first remove the heads and valve plate to see what the actual condition of the compressor is internally, then you could more accuratly quote repairs.
    And if you find the compressor should be replaced that price could be quoted.
    Quotes should be given on work that you know the facts on estimates should be given on work that you don't. JMO
    "Paddle faster, I hear banjo music"

  3. #68
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Second City, USA
    Posts
    61
    Quote Originally Posted by heavymetaldad View Post
    itsme - great reply. your last paragraph, - never gave it a thought, but now reading it, scares the @#$% outta me
    Intelligent and frightening essay itsme!

  4. #69
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    131
    "Back history; the job was originally bid at 16hr but the customer questioned the job because another compressor, a couple of months ago, had the same work done by another tech in 10hr, so I had a hard time justifying a job that is now getting close to doubling in price from the previous job. So I drop it down to 12hr giving the tech 2 more hours than the previous tech/previous job."

    You originally thought it should take 16 hrs (why?) and the tech took 17 hrs. Your tech only went over by 1hr. Sounds reasonable to me.

    As a manager/estimator I too find myself in situations where I may have to sharpen my pencil in order to keep a contract customer happy. If you decide to do this, it is your decision and yours only. Your techs are not responsible for your decision to take hrs. away from a job. If anything needs to be removed from a job it should be margins not hours. If you lower your price it still takes the same amount of time to do the job. If you have expectations of your crew, you might want to let them know what they are, you'd be suprised at the results.

    One of the most challeging aspects of this job is properly applying manpower based on each techs skillset. Not all techs come with the same tool bag or work ethic but everyone brings something to the table. Your job is to know the strengths and weaknesses of every tech and apply them in the most efficient manner and I'd have to say it sounds like you dropped the ball on this one. You backed yourself in a corner by cutting hours. You knew you had a tech that could complete the job within the alotted time and you didn't send him there.

    Again, If you thought 16hrs. was so unrealistic why would you bid it in the first place?

  5. #70
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    224

    Wink

    You quoted the work for 16 hrs. and never looked back thru the customers quote history to find out the last one was 10 hrs!! A little incompetent apprentice manager.
    Is it the same comp that is getting done again?? ( He could have taken the additional 6 hrs with that 10 to see why it broke up.)
    maybe 10 hr man only painted it, how do you know.
    I think 16 hrs is fair and reasonable, some jobs go well, some dont.
    I bet you come down on the UNION boys and you will have a lot more painters until you are gone.
    And make no mistake about it , when owners get a sense that you and the BOYS dont see eye to eye, you are easilier replaced than 10- 20 BOYS.
    That job would take me 2 1/2 days .including me , you and the shop steward having a little talk for half a day

  6. #71
    I didn't read all the posts.

    I did read far enough to say drivewizard can blow it out his a**.

    Having started in this trade in the NAVY I did in the NAV rebuild (ground up) Carrier comps from 3 ton to 80 ton.

    Was very pissed on one boat when after going on leave after deployment to meet my new daughter that my new A/C & R school grad had taken one of my compressors apart and left valve plates on the deck in water and the comp open to atmoshpere.

    Since I was the division LPO (your job Jim) I told that kid to never ever take a wrench to anything unless I told him to.

    I think that 3 valve plates and oil change could be done in a day. Whats the big deal.

    Valve it off, recover, take off the heads, valve plates, inspect, put it all back together. Don't forget the torque wrench.

    I add time to quotes and add a paragraph to say that the time aloted is worst case. Final bill maybe lower if no unforseen circumstances arise. If more time is needed, we communicate to the customer as to why more time is needed.

    If you focus on the job at hand and not on your phone, picking your nose, etc.., it goes much faster.

  7. #72
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Montreal, Qc.
    Posts
    790
    I haven't read the whole thread but I have done this exact job this past Monday.
    My helper and I had the same scenario with the elevator to the top floor with the same 20 steps to the roof give or take a few.
    The gaskets were the fiber ones so a decent amount of scraping was required.
    I recovered all 40lbs of refrigerant from the circuit and I replaced the contactor also.
    I arrived on the job at 7:30 and connected my recovery machine. I left at 8:00 to go to my supplier to pick up the valve plates, new gaskets, oil and contactor.
    I was back on the job at 9:30 and my recovery was completed.
    I used 5 psi of nitrogen to push my oil out of the compressor and by 10:00 I was ready to pull off the heads.
    By 12:00 I had all 3 heads off and all fiber gaskets scraped off. I took a 1/2 hour lunch and by 1:30 I had all 3 heads installed and torqued to 85lb/ft.
    My helper was filling the oil while I was torquing the heads.
    I then pressure tested the system with nitrogen and began my vacuum.
    By 3:00 my vacuum was completed and I began charging the system from the high side. By 4:00 truck was packed and unit was running. I ran into another problem since one of the 2 tx valves in parallel wouldn't open so I had to go back the next day to replace the power element.

    If I was doing this under warranty I could have easily done it in 5 hours with my helper or 8 hours alone busting ass.
    I was taking the time to show him how everything worked and what to look for.
    Ours was a rooftop job and not in a mechanical room.

  8. #73
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Rapid City, SD
    Posts
    7,415
    Quote Originally Posted by thump_rrr View Post
    I haven't read the whole thread but I have done this exact job this past Monday.
    My helper and I had the same scenario with the elevator to the top floor with the same 20 steps to the roof give or take a few.
    The gaskets were the fiber ones so a decent amount of scraping was required.
    I recovered all 40lbs of refrigerant from the circuit and I replaced the contactor also.
    I arrived on the job at 7:30 and connected my recovery machine. I left at 8:00 to go to my supplier to pick up the valve plates, new gaskets, oil and contactor.
    I was back on the job at 9:30 and my recovery was completed.
    I used 5 psi of nitrogen to push my oil out of the compressor and by 10:00 I was ready to pull off the heads.
    By 12:00 I had all 3 heads off and all fiber gaskets scraped off. I took a 1/2 hour lunch and by 1:30 I had all 3 heads installed and torqued to 85lb/ft.
    My helper was filling the oil while I was torquing the heads.
    I then pressure tested the system with nitrogen and began my vacuum.
    By 3:00 my vacuum was completed and I began charging the system from the high side. By 4:00 truck was packed and unit was running. I ran into another problem since one of the 2 tx valves in parallel wouldn't open so I had to go back the next day to replace the power element.

    If I was doing this under warranty I could have easily done it in 5 hours with my helper or 8 hours alone busting ass.
    I was taking the time to show him how everything worked and what to look for.
    Ours was a rooftop job and not in a mechanical room.
    If I read it right, you did the same job, with a helper, in one day. Sounds like it went fairly good, you kept busy but there were no need for any wind sprints to the van either. You + helper for a day, 16 hours...

    Once again, most of us weren't all that far off.
    "If you call that hard work, a koala’s life would look heroic."

  9. #74
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    Western Wa
    Posts
    1,842
    While you guys were all arguing, old "slow and steady" got the job done and moved on to the next.

    They found Mr. Zoom in the bar, and the company tools in the hock shop.
    God Bless our Veterans

    God Bless the USA

  10. #75
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Montreal, Qc.
    Posts
    790
    Quote Originally Posted by amickracing View Post
    If I read it right, you did the same job, with a helper, in one day. Sounds like it went fairly good, you kept busy but there were no need for any wind sprints to the van either. You + helper for a day, 16 hours...

    Once again, most of us weren't all that far off.
    That's correct. but I could have done the job in 8 by my self busting my hump.
    I have done another 2 head 06E in the past in 8 hours by myself and I replaced the oil pump at the same time also.

    I think charging 16 hours is a little excessive especially if the comp was valved off and the heads were picked up 2 days before. 10 hours is much more realistic for 1 man.

    If I were to pick up the valve plates 2 days before I couldn't in good conscience charge for my time to go pick them up since there is ample time to stop and get them when I'm in the area or I could have them delivered to me without losing any time.
    We charge out our helper at a reduced rate since everyone knows that you can't keep a helper busy 100% of the time.

  11. #76
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    45th Parallel
    Posts
    954
    Quote Originally Posted by Jarredsdad View Post
    I didn't read all the posts.

    I did read far enough to say drivewizard can blow it out his a**.

    Having started in this trade in the NAVY I did in the NAV rebuild (ground up) Carrier comps from 3 ton to 80 ton.

    Was very pissed on one boat when after going on leave after deployment to meet my new daughter that my new A/C & R school grad had taken one of my compressors apart and left valve plates on the deck in water and the comp open to atmoshpere.

    Since I was the division LPO (your job Jim) I told that kid to never ever take a wrench to anything unless I told him to.

    I think that 3 valve plates and oil change could be done in a day. Whats the big deal.

    Valve it off, recover, take off the heads, valve plates, inspect, put it all back together. Don't forget the torque wrench.

    I add time to quotes and add a paragraph to say that the time aloted is worst case. Final bill maybe lower if no unforseen circumstances arise. If more time is needed, we communicate to the customer as to why more time is needed.

    If you focus on the job at hand and not on your phone, picking your nose, etc.., it goes much faster.
    LOL
    I can do it in 6 1/2 hours, I live for those "Attaboys".

  12. #77
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    ATL
    Posts
    56
    Quote Originally Posted by thump_rrr View Post
    That's correct. but I could have done the job in 8 by my self busting my hump.
    I have done another 2 head 06E in the past in 8 hours by myself and I replaced the oil pump at the same time also.

    I think charging 16 hours is a little excessive especially if the comp was valved off and the heads were picked up 2 days before. 10 hours is much more realistic for 1 man.

    If I were to pick up the valve plates 2 days before I couldn't in good conscience charge for my time to go pick them up since there is ample time to stop and get them when I'm in the area or I could have them delivered to me without losing any time.
    We charge out our helper at a reduced rate since everyone knows that you can't keep a helper busy 100% of the time.
    Yea allright now first you need to contact JIM because you are the BEST TECH. that works for your company and if you say no just read your repleys and I can see you telling your mang. this everytime you do a quoted job look at me the other guys can't do it as fast as me and if someone dose you try to knock it down. So call JIm he needs more guys like you and remember SAFTY FIRST osha is watching

  13. #78
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Montreal, Qc.
    Posts
    790
    Quote Originally Posted by ON-CALL View Post
    Yea allright now first you need to contact JIM because you are the BEST TECH. that works for your company and if you say no just read your repleys and I can see you telling your mang. this everytime you do a quoted job look at me the other guys can't do it as fast as me and if someone dose you try to knock it down. So call JIm he needs more guys like you and remember SAFTY FIRST osha is watching
    I work for a small shop that has 3 trucks on the road with one of them being the owners.
    The third truck is used by a tech who apprenticed under me 3 years ago.
    I prefer working in this type of environment where we are all around the same age and also have common interests outside of the workplace.
    We hang around together in our off time drag racing and playing golf whenever we have a chance.
    We each have our niche with the owners' being process gas, the second technicians being piping, and mine being HVACR.
    We all work together to make jobs run smoothly and none of us are shy to ask each other for help when we are stuck.
    None of us are above making mistakes or overlooking the obvious once in a while.
    We are all headstrong and opinionated so we need to check our egos at the door otherwise we would be throwing pipe wrenches at each other.

    I received my training working for a national manufacturer of HVAC equipment over 20 years ago so I have been around the block a time or 2.
    I have approximately 45 Carlyle 06D and 06E compressors which I take care of so it is a job I am very comfortable with and perform quite often.

    I don't see what the big deal is in replacing 3 heads and a safety valve.
    There is a total of 24 bolts on the heads and 4 bolts on the suction service valve to get to the safety valve.
    Most of the time is consumed by schlepping tools, recuperating and vacuuming the system.

    Someone else said they could do it in 6.5 and I believe it can be done if you're fast.

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