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  1. #53
    ^^^yah i kinda agree with some of that. but theres also a difference of being a herro and getting the job done quick and nice, and being a worker that this type of work is just a job and you take your time. so as being in a union i would guess that the job took more time than it should have.
    I just did this type of job with one other guy and it took 6 hours, but you could back up to the unit. And we are very busy and get paid for the job so theres some motivation there.
    ? cant tell for the hours you are saying but yes if it was your company and there was 1 grand in you pocket at the end of the day, 8 hours to do the work is plenty of time

  2. #54
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
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    Anytown USA
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    2,043
    [QUOTE=PLUMBERHVACTECH;1965577I just did this type of job with one other guy and it took 6 hours[/QUOTE]

    12 man hours? or was the other guy just a helper and not being charged for?

  3. #55
    12 man hours sorry, but like i said every thing was rite there and easy to get too, thats why as it all depends on type of job not just the job,

  4. #56
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    south bay california
    Posts
    132
    20 hours sounds fair. 16 hours is a very motivated tech, anything less and we may be cutting corners, or be very quick tech and deserves 16 anyways!

  5. #57
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    130
    I would have bid 12 hours, done the job in 8 or 9 at most, and charged 10 to the job. I get a little extra, the company still makes good profit margin on the job, and the customer is happy. Replacing valve plates on an 06e is elementary. I am also nonunion, not very many people union in NC. Although I really dont think that the union-nonunion thing has anything to do with it. Of course this doesnt include diagnostics, just what Jim wrote down.

  6. #58
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    windy city
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    4,401
    Quote Originally Posted by local 832s View Post
    I say it's a 2 day job... SATURDAY, SUNDAY for time 1/2 and Double time. Seriously though, I'm in a union shop where safety comes first. If it takes extra time to do things safely, then so be it. Ladder tied off, harness on elevated equipment, hot work permit ect all this takes TIME. It will cost more for injuries than a few hours of extra time. IMHO

    Please don't compromise peoples safety for profit.
    agreed!!! weekends only!

  7. #59
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    71
    Sounds like you asked the tech and he told you 16 hours{sounds reasonable} then you caved to the customer and bid 12 hours{BIG MISTAKE, next time stick to 16 and NOT TO EXCEED} good sales, business skills could have avoided this. If I was the tech and told you 16 and you came back and told me I had 12.....It would have been 16 plus whatever I thought it would take to teach you not to second guess me. You got off easy with 17 IMO. Seriously did you discuss this with the tech who was doing the work? If you had come back and told me it was important to do it in 12 hrs and explained why, I would tell you honestly and work with you, one big concern is what do you want me to do for the other 4 hrs that day? It would be hard to be productive unless maybe there was some pm work in the same building or nearby. I like to estimate in 1/2 day increments at minimum, whole days are better because of the size if my territory at nature of my work{large comm. and industrial}usually takes nearly a 1/2 day to get tools and gear from van to unit and back.

  8. #60
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    15
    i like to take my time and make sure everythings its good when i leave who needs the stress of rushing a job ever singel day you at work it will catch up to you

  9. #61
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Greensboro, NC
    Posts
    128

    Labor Estimate

    Quote Originally Posted by jim2005 View Post
    I have worked non-Union my whole life and I have recently taken a job were i am now the boss at a Union shop. I know how long this job would have taken me but I am told that I am not being unrealistic, what are your thoughts?
    I am not asking for a price or want to know how to do this just job, but your experience on how long a valve plate replacement would take for you to complete if the job went smoothly, and if it did not go smoothly the quote covered that issue.

    The Job...

    It’s a built up system with an O6E compressor.

    (1) Replace all 3 valves plates, (top, left, right)
    (2) Replace the oil
    (3) Replace the pressure relief
    (4) Replace the (2) 75Amp contactors
    (5) Start and check operation, no other issues and leave.
    (6) The valve plates have core charges and need to be returned

    • The building elevator will take you up the top floor you will have to schlep up 20 steeps to the roof.
    • You pick up your needed parts (2) days earlier while on another job.
    • The drier was not replaced.
    • The compressor was not painted when the work was completed.
    • Mechanical room was left broom swept clean.
    • All other normal procedures were followed.
    • This is your account were you have performed the maintenance for years so you know the system and exactly how it works.
    • Compressor was valved off.
    I would estimate 16 hours max. with an exclusion for any problems found when the system is started up and you are looking for the reason the valves were damaged. Since you changing the valve plates, cleaning time on the gaskets is cut in half compared to checking and then re-using the valve plates. If the compressor had the metal gaskets even more time is saved.
    Compressor discharge and suction valves not holding would also be an exclusion due the entire charge having to be recovered.
    Relief on the outside? 5H120?
    Did the Techs think to push down on any piston at the top of the cylinder?
    06E critical on oil level.... too much = oil screen hammered off by crank slapping the oil.

    OK, we give.... How many hours with the lightbulb?

  10. #62
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    ATL
    Posts
    56
    Quote Originally Posted by jim2005 View Post
    I appreciate many of those that read the question and answered. Those that answered the question brought up some good points and I have thought about what was mentioned.
    A few others need to go back to school and learn how to comprehend what you may read or just read more thoroughly, enough said.

    The job was bid at 12hr. I, yes I have completed the job in 10hr’s to include painting the compressor when finished (attention to the details is important). The tech finished the job in 17hr, he did not have any problems, said the job went smoothly.

    Back history; the job was originally bid at 16hr but the customer questioned the job because another compressor, a couple of months ago, had the same work done by another tech in 10hr, so I had a hard time justifying a job that is now getting close to doubling in price from the previous job. So I drop it down to 12hr giving the tech 2 more hours than the previous tech/previous job.

    This shop has had a salesmen (salesmen is plural) in the service manager position for over 10 years. Those in management did not know how long things should take (my opinion follows) so the techs have been milking the jobs. I am trying to not say to these techs that I can do it faster to many times, that would piss me off if I was still in the field, But they are milking the jobs. These guys seem to be thinking that taking an hour here or there is no big deal but it hurting the bottom line, and I am old school so I also think they a stealing from the company.

    I mentioned union only because in my experience union jobs seem to go longer than the jobs I and other non-union techs seem to do. So I thought “union” was an important factor of figuring out the hours for this job, was I was wrong? The job did come in around 2 days as many mentioned. I am still under the opinion that time was wasted.

    Again I thank those that have done this job and have taken the time to give me there opinions. I also thank those that mentioned good points.
    Here is his responds he had it but made cust. chew him down something you never do it shows weakness

  11. #63
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    ATL
    Posts
    56

    Talking

    Quote Originally Posted by mtntom View Post
    Sounds like you asked the tech and he told you 16 hours{sounds reasonable} then you caved to the customer and bid 12 hours{BIG MISTAKE, next time stick to 16 and NOT TO EXCEED} good sales, business skills could have avoided this. If I was the tech and told you 16 and you came back and told me I had 12.....It would have been 16 plus whatever I thought it would take to teach you not to second guess me. You got off easy with 17 IMO. Seriously did you discuss this with the tech who was doing the work? If you had come back and told me it was important to do it in 12 hrs and explained why, I would tell you honestly and work with you, one big concern is what do you want me to do for the other 4 hrs that day? It would be hard to be productive unless maybe there was some pm work in the same building or nearby. I like to estimate in 1/2 day increments at minimum, whole days are better because of the size if my territory at nature of my work{large comm. and industrial}usually takes nearly a 1/2 day to get tools and gear from van to unit and back.
    RIGHT ON!!!!!!!!!!!!! Could not have said it better

  12. #64
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    southeast
    Posts
    17
    Hello all,

    Jim, I have no problem with asking for opinions of others on this site. However, the reality is if you have been in this trade for many years ( I presume) and are the service manager for a union shop, you should be comfortable with your own call on how long jobs should take. Especially with something that is pretty cut and dry and nothing unusual.

    I take it that you are salaried management and not a sworn member? It does seem that your posts have a subtle hint of union bashing. (see further down)

    Just from the available info, I would say absolutely 16 hours. . . journeyman and apprentice for 1 day or journeyman for 2. I think that it was flange who brought up the intangibles of parking,waiting on elevator, etc. Forgetting a tool in the truck, perhaps. That all matters. Can't forget that all those things add to time. Those who will do it in less, or at least BID it for less, are being unrealistic. You could probably kill yourself and get it done faster if all goes well, but why? I believe in working at a nice steady pace, not rushing. Slow n steady will get it done properly everytime. In the end it always beats out the guys on fire.. . . tortoise, hare anyone?

    Besides, AND THIS IS FACT, if you do it in thirteen hours, they will bid the next one for twelve. If you can do it in twelve, 'stop wasting time and you can get it done in eleven!'. Sorry, but this " an hour or two of wasted time is stealing and hurting the company's BOTTOM LINE " is total corporate bullshot! Sick of hearing it!

    Your men ARE YOUR BOTTOM LINE. Allow them to do their jobs safely and correctly. Allow them to be comfortable in what they're doing and not look at the clock to see if they're cutting it too close. That is what is most efficient in the end.

    Never, cave in to a customer either. I can hear the owners typing the keyboard in response right now, saying that I 'am an idiot, and don't know business and that you need to be ultra competative or else run the risk of losing the job and then your techs have no work. . . . then what?. . huh? '
    How much caving can you do in order to be competative? The customer will always want it cheaper no matter what. If you could do the job for free, that would be GREAT! A good customer will realize that the cost is not the most important thing. If you lose a customer on that sole fact, then so be it, they are not worth keeping. They will probably be back anyway, as you are more likely to keep or lose a customer on quality of work and a respectfull relationship. If they feel that they can push you around, there will be no loyalty there and they will dump on you constantly untill they find another contractor to bully.


    Also, what is the deal with guys doing SERVICE piece work? Is this common place? God, I hope not! The only piecework I can remember was installers on construction track homes. Are these general tradesmen that do hvac service for a contractor and get payed by the job? Scary. 'Have pickup,will travel'. .. holy cow! 'I'll do that overhaul for thousand bucks,but I have to wait untill my brother in law gets a weekend off. He's the bartender at Friday's and they're really busy right now.' Please tell me I'm wrong!

    What is this trade coming to?


    A little off topic, I know, but,

    On that note, can't stand the union bashing, subtle or otherwise. Was reading the thread of "what do you get paid' ,or something to that effect, originally posted a few years ago. The pro-union folks ( I am one) missed one important reason for unions of any kind. . . . COLLECTIVE BARGAINING. Strength in numbers is an undenyable fact. Men and women working together as one entity have much more bargaining power that the lone individual. More power means more leverage to level the playing field. And although poorly run unions have no doubt hurt the cause, it is corporate America that is crushing blue-collar workers! Make no mistake - the Republican party (for the most part) and their corporate partners in crime have nothing but disdain for the likes of you and me. ' How dare these little people try to demand a livable wage, health insurance, safety compliance, a retirement plan and the like? Who do they think they are?'

    Before you owners get all worked up, please know that I am not at all anti-business. It is a partnership. We can work together quite easily to get what we all want. What I am against is GREED. The growing disparity between workers and executives in this country is painfull. 30 years ago, the top executive of a company made on average 35 times what the average worker for that company made. . . today it is over 400 times! Where does it end?



    Also, for those of us that think that we no longer need union protection, what about our jobs being outsourced? I hear guys say that you can send factory jobs overseas but you can't outsource service. I say, do you think it impossible that United Technologies, Ingersoll Rand, Johnson Controls and whoever own Mcquay this week, can't get together, open up a state of the art million square foot training facility in Beijing or New Dehli and have themselves a whole new group of workers that are smarter, younger and better trained than we? All coming here by the thousands on work visas to work for 12 bucks an hour and no benefits and be happy todo so? Can't happen???

  13. #65
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    1,448
    Do a not to exceed price. Figure the worst that you can reasonably figure add a little extra and explain that the price is not to exceed $x but may be cheaper depending on unknown variables with you not having x-ray vision.

    Or give 2 prices the first would be the one above the second would be to do an inspection to figure out what else is needed.
    "It's always controls"

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