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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    14

    410A chaos in 2010

    There's no question that the new law that outlaws the manufacture of R22 machines in 2010 is going to create a lot of chaos. I would like to submit these questions for discussion:

    Is 410 refrigerant ventable? If it is not, why is it better then R22? If it's not ventable it must also be harmful to the atmosphere just like R22 so what's the purpose of making this change?

    If the manufacture of R22 machines are outlawed in 2010, does that mean that if a compressor fails, a serviceman must rip out the indoor blower unit, the condenser and all the piping and replace it all with a R410 machine? Imagine how many existing R22 machines there are in the country and think about high rise buildings sometimes with several floors of piping. I wonder if the government itself will comply with it's own law in their buildings? They certainly can't afford that expense no more than the average homeowner.

    R-401 machines operate with a high side pressure of 450-500 pounds. Is this something that belongs in a house?

    A Comparison:
    R-12 in cars eventually outdated itself because cars have a short lifespan. Houses have long lifespans and really do not outdate themselves so there is no comparison between what happened to r-12 and what's going on now.

    As a technician I just don't see how outlawing R-22 machines can work. They'll be too much chaos. I believe that a drop-in refrigerant is the only solution possible.

    Your thoughts?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Denver, CO
    Posts
    4,229
    Quote Originally Posted by philkawa View Post
    There's no question that the new law that outlaws the manufacture of R22 machines in 2010 is going to create a lot of chaos. I would like to submit these questions for discussion:

    Is 410 refrigerant ventable? If it is not, why is it better then R22? If it's not ventable it must also be harmful to the atmosphere just like R22 so what's the purpose of making this change?

    If the manufacture of R22 machines are outlawed in 2010, does that mean that if a compressor fails, a serviceman must rip out the indoor blower unit, the condenser and all the piping and replace it all with a R410 machine? Imagine how many existing R22 machines there are in the country and think about high rise buildings sometimes with several floors of piping. I wonder if the government itself will comply with it's own law in their buildings? They certainly can't afford that expense no more than the average homeowner.

    R-401 machines operate with a high side pressure of 450-500 pounds. Is this something that belongs in a house?

    A Comparison:
    R-12 in cars eventually outdated itself because cars have a short lifespan. Houses have long lifespans and really do not outdate themselves so there is no comparison between what happened to r-12 and what's going on now.

    As a technician I just don't see how outlawing R-22 machines can work. They'll be too much chaos. I believe that a drop-in refrigerant is the only solution possible.

    Your thoughts?
    410A is not ventable it must be recoverd also. The major difference is R-22 is a HCFC and 410 is an HFC there is no chlorine witch is what hurts the ozone. even after 2010 compressors for R-22 will still be allowed to be manufatured and will still be readily available. And R-22 will still be manufatured but with a 65% decrease in production. even though 410A runs at higher pressures it is still safe for use in homes.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    NH + VT
    Posts
    27
    Quote Originally Posted by philkawa View Post
    .

    As a technician I just don't see how outlawing R-22 machines can work. They'll be too much chaos. I believe that a drop-in refrigerant is the only solution possible.

    Your thoughts?
    As a technician you should be doing your homework on why and what will need to be done for the R-22 equipment and refrigerant phase out. There is more than enough time here not to cause chaos. I think we made it through the R-12 and R-502 phase out ok. Compressors will be available for R-22 systems for years and years. And there is and will be R-22 replacement gas as a drop in as well. I don't see any major issue. I think the harder problem to explain to people has been the SEER change. Explaining to a customer that if they want to change the condensing unit we will have to change the indoor unit as well is and can be difficult to explain. No need to panic about the R-22 phase out. IMO
    Don't you think R-12 was in almost every commercial and residential refrigeration system? Millions of pieces of equipment.
    "Luck is what happens when preperation meets opportunity."

    Lucius Annaeus Seneca

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    999
    J. D. Perkins stated:

    "I think we made it through the R-12 and R-502 phase out ok."

    Re: the 502. Just curious, I worked with very low temperature equipment (freeze drying) many years ago which used 502. Is there a drop-in replacement?

    AM

  5. #5
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN, USA
    Posts
    34,339
    If you can't change the tubing, flush it. At least one of our brands calls for doing that on a refrigerant switch.

    A GOOD company would be matching the evap (or indoor unit) upgrading to a R22 13 SEER system anyway.

  6. #6

    2seamaster

    I think Philkawa had some good questions. I would like to know what you mean by drop in referigrant, and why isn't the home industry using 134 as it works good in my auto.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Lancaster PA
    Posts
    68,367
    Phil.

    You are under several misconceptions.
    R22 replacement parts will still be made, long after 2010, including compressors.
    R12 compressors are still made today.

    The making of R22 systems is not outlawed either. So they may be made for a while in 2010.

    Your water heater is more dangerous then R410A operating at 500 PSIG.

    R410A must be recovered because of the EPA wording that states " all compounds used as a refrigerant must be recovered".
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  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    657
    typical fear there is dropins but i know some manufacturers have said that if you use them it will void the warranty. sounds like you fear change...... jmo.
    "The things you own end up owning you. "

    Tyler Durden

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    657
    sounds like the y2k scare .......... sorry this just makes me laugh
    "The things you own end up owning you. "

    Tyler Durden

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Round Rock
    Posts
    3,587
    I don't think it will be chaos. Parts won't be stocked as much as now in the supply houses. But you will be able to get them, it might take a day or 2 longer. You might have problems if you haven't been preparing for the changeover. You should be pushing 410 equipment. We only put in R410 anymore, unless the customer doesn't want or have the $$$ to change everything. We'll match a coil to a condenser or vice versa if one goes out, rental stuff mostly. But inform the customer as to what will be happening. That's all you can do, we all gotta eat.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    ??????
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    6
    Quote Originally Posted by beenthere View Post
    You are under several misconceptions.
    R22 replacement parts will still be made, long after 2010, including compressors.
    R12 compressors are still made today.
    I disagree.

    Within certain limits, a compressor is a compressor is a compressor. The difference is the lubricating oils. Alkabenzyene oil vs. mineral oil vs. polyol oil is the major difference.

    And yeah, I can't spell worth a you-know-what.

    oops, sorry, R22 parts will be made for a long time. The comment was made about the R12 compressors.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Lancaster PA
    Posts
    68,367
    They still make or have available compressors designated as CFC R12 compressors.

    With only ratings using R12. They are considered obsolete.
    Don't forget. Not all countries have banned R12.

    Here is a current R12 compressor, still available.
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  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    west point, ga.
    Posts
    328
    To sum it up:GET USED TO IT.The only thing anyone ever fears are the things they don't understand.

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