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Thread: Cellulose

  1. #14
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Naples, Fl
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    889
    Quote Originally Posted by kenny mac View Post
    What is insulation for than anyway.... ?????

    So your saying it is best to suspend a R-6 (R-8 now) full of 45* to 55* air in 150* 90% RH ambient air with a slick surface
    Over that same duct buried below insulation where it should be with in 5* to 10* of the interior air

    Roll one out of your bag !!!! Thats some good stuff !!!!!

    With you guys thinking.... Way do they even bother putting insulation on flex at all..... ????????????

    We buried those ducts just North of Atlanta.... During the R&D

    Your saying as well all the top "Building Forensic Scientist" are "Dangerous.

    Let me remind you !!! All the R&D I have been involved with since 1998 has had a direct impact on everybody's building codes...

    Sorry I will have to check on this DeWhit guy....

    I know last time you guys trashed me.... I found out your info was from some idiot who was paid of by the "Fiberglass Crooks"

    Let me check this Dwhitt guy out
    Km

    I haven't trashed you I just posted that which was publicly available from a person like you; a stranger on the INTERNET. After that posting it was admitted that under the right conditions the cellulose would support mold growth there was nothing sinister or malicious intended.

    No the drywall isn't where the condensation occurs it starts on the vapor barrier of the duct.

    For soggy South West Florida the vapor movement to the now even cooler a.k.a barried in lose fill insulation, duct vapor barrier is not impeded.

    We're not really a summer vacation destination but you're welcome to visit anytime and see for yourself.

    And as long as you're not a smoker or haven't destroyed your sense of smell some way you can do a first stage mold survey. Then go digging through the virgin, usually blown fiberglass insulation and pull yourself out a sample to send of to your lab of choice. If you need help with that I happen to be a certified (ha-ha) mold inspector but about I will do is help with the chain of custody.

    I wasn't calling Dr. Joe or any of the building science community dangerous; just your blanket statements.

    For me I prefer no fiberglass or cellulose insulation at the ceiling.

    My experience with the Building Science folks and Dr Joe's thinking began with the 1997 Home and Condo Dream Home here.

    My built in 2000 home's entire envelop is sprayed in place foam.

    There is some irony in that Icynene and Dr. Joe are from Canada considering their presence in our climate.

    When two people agree on everything one of them is doing all the thinking.

  2. #15
    Join Date
    May 2008
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    15
    Mo, Larry...Cheese

  3. #16
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Rydal,Ga
    Posts
    84

    Alright AD help me ??? I am serious.... I can't understand how??

    Ad..

    First of all.. as you can tell I need a vacation... me and the wife will be there to your place in the AM....
    Second I have one of those useless mold cert. myself.

    In your region and mine.. the moisture is coming form a vented attic...
    Moisture always gose to where it is cold..
    Moisture always goes to less...
    Heat always goes to where it cold...

    So in redneck terms... if you have a vented attic in the summer... in our region.... nothing or no matter where the flex is... it is going to sweat ??? right ??

    Wouldn't an extra layer of insulation slow or eliminate condensation ??

    The cellulose we use has mold inhibitors (boric acid).... so how does the cellulose contribute to mold growth???

    I am serious.... how does burring the ducts below and around cellulose increase condensation???

    Your right !!! Foam that Roof.... will fix it all !!!! Call BR549...

    I think I here a "Merlot" calling me......

  4. #17
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Naples, Fl
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    889
    Wouldn't an extra layer of insulation slow or eliminate condensation ??

    Not without a vapor barrier to stop the movement of moisture through the lose fill insulation.

    Now in fairness cellulose is only used in low budget homes in this community so my experience has only been with ducts burried in fiberglass.

  5. #18
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Naples, Fl
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    889
    So in redneck terms... if you have a vented attic in the summer... in our region.... nothing or no matter where the flex is... it is going to sweat ??? right ??


    Actaully no but at the cost of the thermal load added through the duct gain that you have to pay to get rid of. Ducts and units located in garages and alcoves actually sweat alot more.

    As long as the home owner isn't trying for 72-68 indoor temps and other than days when the tropical storms keep us wet and below 80 degrees then everything sweats.

  6. #19
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Rydal,Ga
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    84

    Cheers... Bottoms up... went for the bud-sel.. to much "Enthalpy" for Merlot..

    Quote Originally Posted by adrianf View Post
    So in redneck terms... if you have a vented attic in the summer... in our region.... nothing or no matter where the flex is... it is going to sweat ??? right ??


    Actaully no but at the cost of the thermal load added through the duct gain that you have to pay to get rid of. Ducts and units located in garages and alcoves actually sweat alot more.

    As long as the home owner isn't trying for 72-68 indoor temps and other than days when the tropical storms keep us wet and below 80 degrees then everything sweats.
    "Enthalpy" just robbed some one of that word... don't know what it means... heheheheh but it sounds good..

    Oh BTW up here fiberglass is used only in low end homes.... cellulose excursively in high dollar home... well we foam a bunch too

  7. #20
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    4H: Hot, Humid Houston H.O.
    Posts
    3,304
    Does it seem reasonable to anyone that the *exterior* surface of an insulated duct might get down to 70-75 degrees? That is typical dewpoint in some climates.

  8. #21
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Fort Worth, TX
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    11,289
    Quote Originally Posted by pstu View Post
    Does it seem reasonable to anyone that the *exterior* surface of an insulated duct might get down to 70-75 degrees? That is typical dewpoint in some climates.
    That would be worth gathering some IR data for. Go up into an attic during peak solar loading, a/c system running non-stop, and measure surface temperature of ductwork suspended over blown-in insulation. Radiant gain to surface of duct insulation from roof deck is likely high, keeping surface temp above dew point of attic air. Next, measure surface temp of blown-in insulation, then temperature halfway into insulation, then temperature of topside of ceiling drywall adjoining bottom of insulation pile. Add a psychrometric chart to the mix and go crazy with the figures. Would make for interesting findings, IMO.

    Quick observation: just checked my rinky dink data loggers for attic and outdoor temps...attic currently showing 102 at 25% RH, rendering a 59 degree dew point. Outdoors is 87^F/57%, giving a 70 degree dew point. If my attic is ventilating, it must be slow (little wind today) and it's possible a bit of exfiltration from the house is occurring, lowering moisture content. At that, I doubt the surface of my ducts in the attic, which are suspended from the rafters, wrapped in old foil faced fiberglass, is at 59 or lower degrees in temperature. I have no history of sweating ducts up there as it is.

  9. #22
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Westchester Co, NY
    Posts
    104
    [QUOTE=kenny mac;1951659]
    Quote Originally Posted by doogan123 View Post

    Also - when dense packed is blown into the walls, does it settle over time.. by this i mean in 5 years time - if I took of some Rock.. would the top 6 inches of the wall be without insulation?

    DO NOT DENSE PACK !!!! Spray "Stabilize Cellulose" it has an adhesive in it sets up like papermesha..
    Plus the boric acid inhibits pest, fire, and mold !!!
    30% to 50% better than batts thermally and infiltration as well !!!
    If they do not know how to damp spray.... they don't need ot be in the industry!!!
    YES... Dense packed walls with any loose fill WILL SETTLE !!!!

    go to my page www.kesspray.com for tons of info....

    I mis spoke - I am referring to the wet spray stuff.. where they mix it with some compound and it sticks onto the wall. So you are saying that this will not settle in the wall over time?

    In reference to burying the flexible ducts, In NY state is this what i should be doing. I did a quick look for average dew points and found it to be around 41 degrees.

    In terms of cost effective insulation what else should i be looking at for my area?

    thanks for the feedback

  10. #23
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Rydal,Ga
    Posts
    84

    Fiberglass will sweat.. lets do some R&D

    Yawl.. take a unfaced fiberglass batt and shove it in the freezer... now take your local newspaper and shove it in the freezer....

    Now in the AM when the RH is the highest.... grab both batt and newspaper and run outside with them..... after a minute or two give them both a shake!

    BTW !!!ALL Loose fill insulation in the attic.... is not code compliant...
    The IEEC says insulation must be complete-continuous-contiguous- must touch the air barrier and thermal barrier..... Imposable with loose fill in Attic

  11. #24
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    Jul 2008
    Location
    Rydal,Ga
    Posts
    84

    No it can't settle !!

    [quote=doogan123;1952236]
    Quote Originally Posted by kenny mac View Post


    I mis spoke - I am referring to the wet spray stuff.. where they mix it with some compound and it sticks onto the wall. So you are saying that this will not settle in the wall over time?
    In reference to burying the flexible ducts, In NY state is this what i should be doing. I did a quick look for average dew points and found it to be around 41 degrees.
    In terms of cost effective insulation what else should i be looking at for my area?thanks for the feedback
    If applied density is right... and sprayed by a pro... it can't settle !!

    As for the buried ducts and dew points AD has his data in S. Fla... I search my tale off and I could not find nothing negative that had substance.

    For the $$$$$ you can't beat Cellulose....For the best bar nunn....
    Closed Cell Foam is the best !!!

  12. #25
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    Jan 2007
    Location
    Westchester Co, NY
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    104
    Quote Originally Posted by kenny mac View Post
    BTW !!!ALL Loose fill insulation in the attic.... is not code compliant...
    The IEEC says insulation must be complete-continuous-contiguous- must touch the air barrier and thermal barrier..... Imposable with loose fill in Attic
    Kenny - So if i understand you correctly - I should not spray loose fill cellulose in my attic floor?

    what do you recommend or what are the other options

    thanks

  13. #26
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Rydal,Ga
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    Well No you have to do something !!

    Quote Originally Posted by doogan123 View Post
    Kenny - So if i understand you correctly - I should not spray loose fill cellulose in my attic floor?

    what do you recommend or what are the other options

    thanks
    You have to Loose Fill or Condition the Attic.... (Foam Roof)

    One huge impact on EE.. that we do is to foam all the penetrations and gaps of the attic floor before you loose fill...
    It is amazing the infiltration from the top plates in the attic in to the interior wall acvities...

    The absolute best approach any where is to "Condition The Attic"... its expensive.... longer payback.. but !!

    You gain at least 30% efficiency of the ducts and air handler being within...
    The Latent load is reduced drastically...
    You have eliminated tons of nasty stuff entering your home...
    My opinion you have reduced fire potential from a vented attic

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