Cellulose
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  1. #1
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    Cellulose

    I am not sure that this is the correct audiance - please let me know if i am posting incorrectly.

    I guess this question leads to a years old debate - is cellulose a good product for insultation. I like it, and feel that at the time of install its a good product. I am also aware that some people dislike it, some people love it from all my reading... I do believe its a safe material (Whether i am right or wrong...)

    My main questions are - Over a period of time - say 30 years, does it deterioate and turn to dust and loose its value?

    Also - when dense packed is blown into the walls, does it settle over time.. by this i mean in 5 years time - if I took of some Rock.. would the top 6 inches of the wall be without insulation?



    Thanks everyone

  2. #2
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    For the $$$$ is the best !!!!

    [quote=doogan123;1951644]I am not sure that this is the correct audiance - please let me know if i am posting incorrectly.

    Yes, the insulation has the biggest impact on HVAC.. Period !!


    I guess this question leads to a years old debate - is cellulose a good product for insultation. I like it, and feel that at the time of install its a good product. I am also aware that some people dislike it, some people love it from all my reading...

    Its the American way... if your a winner.... your hated !!!!
    Its Better, Healthier, E-Friendly, Non-Toxic, Affordable, Safer, !!!!


    My main questions are - Over a period of time - say 30 years, does it deterioate and turn to dust and loose its value?

    If in a nasty, hot, moist attic.. yes it can deteriorate.... all materials exposed to extreme temps and extreme moisture changes deteriorates !!

    Also - when dense packed is blown into the walls, does it settle over time.. by this i mean in 5 years time - if I took of some Rock.. would the top 6 inches of the wall be without insulation?

    DO NOT DENSE PACK !!!! Spray "Stabilize Cellulose" it has an adhesive in it sets up like papermesha..
    Plus the boric acid inhibits pest, fire, and mold !!!
    30% to 50% better than batts thermally and infiltration as well !!!
    If they do not know how to damp spray.... they don't need ot be in the industry!!!
    YES... Dense packed walls with any loose fill WILL SETTLE !!!!

    go to my page www.kesspray.com for tons of info....

  3. #3
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    Should blown cellulose depth in attic cover flex ducts?

    [QUOTE=kenny mac;1951659]
    Quote Originally Posted by doogan123 View Post
    I am not sure that this is the correct audiance - please let me know if i am posting incorrectly.

    Yes, the insulation has the biggest impact on HVAC.. Period !!


    I guess this question leads to a years old debate - is cellulose a good product for insultation. I like it, and feel that at the time of install its a good product. I am also aware that some people dislike it, some people love it from all my reading...

    Its the American way... if your a winner.... your hated !!!!
    Its Better, Healthier, E-Friendly, Non-Toxic, Affordable, Safer, !!!!


    My main questions are - Over a period of time - say 30 years, does it deterioate and turn to dust and loose its value?

    If in a nasty, hot, moist attic.. yes it can deteriorate.... all materials exposed to extreme temps and extreme moisture changes deteriorates !!

    Also - when dense packed is blown into the walls, does it settle over time.. by this i mean in 5 years time - if I took of some Rock.. would the top 6 inches of the wall be without insulation?

    DO NOT DENSE PACK !!!! Spray "Stabilize Cellulose" it has an adhesive in it sets up like papermesha..
    Plus the boric acid inhibits pest, fire, and mold !!!
    30% to 50% better than batts thermally and infiltration as well !!!
    If they do not know how to damp spray.... they don't need ot be in the industry!!!
    YES... Dense packed walls with any loose fill WILL SETTLE !!!!

    go to my page www.kesspray.com for tons of info....

    KM ....is it a bad idea to cover attic flex ducts with blown cellulose? Will that cause unwanted condensation? How do I get around this issue if I want to add insulation? Thanks ....

  4. #4
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    It should not be covered nor should it lay on the insulation; in addition the flexes should not lay on each other. It should be supported every ten feet with a minimun of sag.

  5. #5
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    I hope this helps... this is some R&D I was involved in about buried ducts

    [quote=VA GENT;1951667]
    Quote Originally Posted by kenny mac View Post


    KM ....is it a bad idea to cover attic flex ducts with blown cellulose? Will that cause unwanted condensation? How do I get around this issue if I want to add insulation? Thanks ....
    Sorry "adrianf" buried ducts is recommended in the Title 24 Calf. Energy Code.
    I was part of the HoBo Data gathering and actually done the work on this.

    If ya can't put them in the house.... them drop them and cover them ~~~

    CARB Is Evaluating Duct Insulation Strategies

    May 2003



    Thermograph of heat flow around a cooling supply duct in a hot attic.
    A key element of many Building America projects has been to reduce duct losses or gains using affordable methods. To this end, the Consortium for Advanced Residential Buildings (CARB) has been researching the energy benefits and implementation issues associated with burying ducts under low cost loose fill attic insulation.
    Through improved duct sealing practices developed in recent years, many HVAC contractors are now capable of reducing duct leakage to close to 5% percent of air-handler flow. With duct leakage now under control in many cases, conductive energy losses have become a more significant component of thermal distribution inefficiency than ever before. Placing ducts under loose-fill attic insulation reduces conductive heat gains in the summer and heat loss during the winter at no additional cost. The greatest benefit associated with increased duct R-values is a reduction in peak cooling demand when attic temperatures are hottest. This peak load reduction can even result in cooling equipment downsizing of � ton and thus a net decrease in first cost. Because a tight duct system buried under enough attic insulation can approach the energy performance of a duct system located in conditioned space at a fraction of the incremental cost, it is an attractive alternative for cost conscious builders.
    But how much attic insulation is enough? To begin to answer this question and to obtain a more quantitative understanding of the construction variables that affect the performance of buried duct systems, CARB conducted a heat transfer modeling analyses using ALGOR� software. As a result of this work, an equivalent R-value that conventional hung ducts must be wrapped with to achieve the same thermal performance as buried ducts was determined for a variety of buried duct configurations. CARB looked at small ducts and large ducts, run over or between truss chords in attics with different levels of blown-in fiberglass and cellulose.
    As a result of this study, design guidelines for predicting the performance of buried ducts were developed. These guidelines assign an equivalent R-value to a duct based upon its classification as either "deeply buried," "fully buried," or "partially buried." The advantage of these designations is that they are both easy to understand and verify. Because field validation of modeling results is still required, the equivalent R-values chosen are somewhat conservative. A duct system equivalent R-value is then calculated based upon the different equivalent R-values of component trunks and branches.
    Applying this method to different duct layouts demonstrates the effect that a more compact duct system design has on increasing duct system equivalent R-value. With a well-engineered duct system layout and R-38 of attic insulation, our modeling-based guidelines indicate that equivalent system R-values of R-15 are achievable. Coincidentally, there is typically no further equipment downsizing potential at system R-values greater than R-15.
    Recently in response to this work, the California Energy Commission (CEC) has become interested in including a buried duct credit in their state energy code. At their request, CARB has developed language concerning the design and field verification of buried duct systems that is in the process of being adopted into the 2005 California Energy Code. (For more information, see: (PDF 151 KB) Download Acrobat Reader.
    In addition to this ongoing work with the CEC, CARB is planning field-testing of buried duct systems this summer to validate/refine modeling results. This approach is not currently recommended for use in hot-humid climates.

  6. #6
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    KM

    You're dangerous, if you come to my neck of the woods and you blow fiberglass or your beloved cellulose insulation over the the duct work here you will have condensation and mold in rapid fashion.

    Quoted from:Craig DeWitt, principal of RLC Engineering, LLC, Clemson, S.C published in ACHR News Dec 12, 2003

    “If we have ducts in contact with insulation, we have more of a potential for condensation,” he added. “If you’ve got insulation blown around ducts, you’re asking for trouble.”
    Last edited by adrianf; 08-06-2008 at 02:00 PM.

  7. #7
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    Maybe California can get away with that. Does any part of their jurisdiction have high dewpoint weather? Of course Florida lives with 70-75 dewpoint much of the year.

    Regards -- Pstu

  8. #8
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    WOA..... So your say the sheet rock below sweat ???

    Quote Originally Posted by adrianf View Post
    KM

    You're dangerous, if you come to my neck of the woods and you blow fiberglass or your beloved cellulose insulation over the the duct work here you will have condensation and mold in rapid fashion.

    Quoted from:Craig DeWitt, principal of RLC Engineering, LLC, Clemson, S.C published in ACHR News Dec 12, 2003

    “If we have ducts in contact with insulation, we have more of a potential for condensation,” he added. “If you’ve got insulation blown around ducts, you’re asking for trouble.”
    What is insulation for than anyway.... ?????

    So your saying it is best to suspend a R-6 (R-8 now) full of 45* to 55* air in 150* 90% RH ambient air with a slick surface
    Over that same duct buried below insulation where it should be with in 5* to 10* of the interior air

    Roll one out of your bag !!!! Thats some good stuff !!!!!

    With you guys thinking.... Way do they even bother putting insulation on flex at all..... ????????????

    We buried those ducts just North of Atlanta.... During the R&D

    Your saying as well all the top "Building Forensic Scientist" are "Dangerous.

    Let me remind you !!! All the R&D I have been involved with since 1998 has had a direct impact on everybody's building codes...

    Sorry I will have to check on this DeWhit guy....

    I know last time you guys trashed me.... I found out your info was from some idiot who was paid of by the "Fiberglass Crooks"

    Let me check this Dwhitt guy out

  9. #9
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    [QUOTE=kenny mac;1951659]
    Quote Originally Posted by doogan123 View Post

    Also - when dense packed is blown into the walls, does it settle over time.. by this i mean in 5 years time - if I took of some Rock.. would the top 6 inches of the wall be without insulation?

    DO NOT DENSE PACK !!!! Spray "Stabilize Cellulose" it has an adhesive in it sets up like papermesha..
    Plus the boric acid inhibits pest, fire, and mold !!!
    30% to 50% better than batts thermally and infiltration as well !!!
    If they do not know how to damp spray.... they don't need ot be in the industry!!!
    YES... Dense packed walls with any loose fill WILL SETTLE !!!!

    go to my page www.kesspray.com for tons of info....

    I mis spoke - I am referring to the wet spray stuff.. where they mix it with some compound and it sticks onto the wall. So you are saying that this will not settle in the wall over time?

    In reference to burying the flexible ducts, In NY state is this what i should be doing. I did a quick look for average dew points and found it to be around 41 degrees.

    In terms of cost effective insulation what else should i be looking at for my area?

    thanks for the feedback

  10. #10
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    Fiberglass will sweat.. lets do some R&D

    Yawl.. take a unfaced fiberglass batt and shove it in the freezer... now take your local newspaper and shove it in the freezer....

    Now in the AM when the RH is the highest.... grab both batt and newspaper and run outside with them..... after a minute or two give them both a shake!

    BTW !!!ALL Loose fill insulation in the attic.... is not code compliant...
    The IEEC says insulation must be complete-continuous-contiguous- must touch the air barrier and thermal barrier..... Imposable with loose fill in Attic

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenny mac View Post
    BTW !!!ALL Loose fill insulation in the attic.... is not code compliant...
    The IEEC says insulation must be complete-continuous-contiguous- must touch the air barrier and thermal barrier..... Imposable with loose fill in Attic
    Kenny - So if i understand you correctly - I should not spray loose fill cellulose in my attic floor?

    what do you recommend or what are the other options

    thanks

  12. #12
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    Well No you have to do something !!

    Quote Originally Posted by doogan123 View Post
    Kenny - So if i understand you correctly - I should not spray loose fill cellulose in my attic floor?

    what do you recommend or what are the other options

    thanks
    You have to Loose Fill or Condition the Attic.... (Foam Roof)

    One huge impact on EE.. that we do is to foam all the penetrations and gaps of the attic floor before you loose fill...
    It is amazing the infiltration from the top plates in the attic in to the interior wall acvities...

    The absolute best approach any where is to "Condition The Attic"... its expensive.... longer payback.. but !!

    You gain at least 30% efficiency of the ducts and air handler being within...
    The Latent load is reduced drastically...
    You have eliminated tons of nasty stuff entering your home...
    My opinion you have reduced fire potential from a vented attic

  13. #13
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    >>Kenny - So if i understand you correctly - I should not spray loose fill cellulose in my attic floor?

    >>what do you recommend or what are the other options



    Is your location in NY a hot-humid climate? Do you have any info on what your dewpoint is likely to be? I am not a pro but have difficulty seeing any condensation potential if NY is as cool and dry as I think it is. FWIW my brother lives in upstate NY.

    Hope this helps -- Pstu

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