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  1. #14
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Rydal,Ga
    Posts
    84

    Thanks...adrianf

    Quote Originally Posted by adrianf View Post
    KM

    I am not trying to take away or make light of your passion or dedication.

    Department of Natural Resources and Environmental Management, Ball State University, Muncie, IN 47306, USA.

    Mold investigations were conducted in four buildings that had been insulated with wet spray-applied cellulose insulation (WSACI). Bulk WSACI samples were collected and analyzed by quantitative polymerase chain reaction (QPCR) methods. Airborne mold was evaluated using both Burkard total mold spore and Andersen culturable/viable sampling methods. Although reportedly treated with biocidal borates, QPCR analyses indicated that elevated concentrations of mold cells (reported as spore equivalents per gram) may be present in WSACI. QPCR analyses showed the following: (1) very high concentrations of Penicillium chrysogenum in samples from two of four buildings; (2) very high concentrations of Stachybotrys chartarum in samples from one building and a more moderate presence in a second; (3) moderately high concentrations of Aspergillus versicolor in samples from one building and more moderate concentrations in a second; (4) the presence of the opportunistic pathogen, Aspergillus fumigatus, in samples from three of the four buildings, and (5) the presence of 22 of 23 target mold species. Elevated airborne total mold spore concentrations were observed in all four of the buildings investigated. Culturable/viable airborne mold concentrations were moderately elevated in three of the four buildings. Mold genera/types present were relatively consistent among airborne mold samples collected by both methods and bulk sample analyses. Results of this study suggest that WSACI has the potential to cause elevated airborne mold levels in buildings where it has been applied and pose significant mold exposure and public health risks.
    Thanks and I hope you don't mind but I tried to find the scope of this study....
    I could not find how long these homes had been or if they had even been acclimated....
    There are tons of construction moistures & spores retained for months after a home is occupied. Not to mention the doors and windows are always wide open !!!
    Did they sample outside for a refinance count??
    This study makes claims that the mold spores was caused by the wet sprayed cellulose.... NO WAY
    If the home was sampled during drying or in the time need to dry the home out, yes sampling would be elevated.
    Moisture pathogens and spores are always elevated during temp. increase and moisture/humidity decreases..... They panic and start producing spores to survive.
    Aspergillus, Penicillium and Cladosporium all must have high moisture exposure and ground source vegetation to survive. If you have plants and dirt inside or outside your home you will have the guys in your home.
    All crawl space homes have these guys at elevated levels....

    Stachybotrys require almost total saturation to survive.

    There is also a misrepresentation of "WETSPRAY"
    Cellulose should be sprayed between 30% to 40% moisture content, with in a day or so, depending on the RH it will level out to 18% to 28%.
    Most wood framing members are between 18% to 30%
    Drywall Mud, Plaster, Thinset, Morter, Concrete and Paint are at 70% to 80%

    Mold is every where, and will be here till the end of time.
    If not for mold and termites.... this would would be a ugly place....

  2. #15
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Naples, Fl
    Posts
    889
    Quote Originally Posted by kenny mac View Post
    Thanks and I hope you don't mind but I tried to find the scope of this study....
    I could not find how long these homes had been or if they had even been acclimated....
    There are tons of construction moistures & spores retained for months after a home is occupied. Not to mention the doors and windows are always wide open !!!
    Did they sample outside for a refinance count??
    This study makes claims that the mold spores was caused by the wet sprayed cellulose.... NO WAY
    If the home was sampled during drying or in the time need to dry the home out, yes sampling would be elevated.
    Moisture pathogens and spores are always elevated during temp. increase and moisture/humidity decreases..... They panic and start producing spores to survive.
    Aspergillus, Penicillium and Cladosporium all must have high moisture exposure and ground source vegetation to survive. If you have plants and dirt inside or outside your home you will have the guys in your home.
    All crawl space homes have these guys at elevated levels....

    Stachybotrys require almost total saturation to survive.

    There is also a misrepresentation of "WETSPRAY"
    Cellulose should be sprayed between 30% to 40% moisture content, with in a day or so, depending on the RH it will level out to 18% to 28%.
    Most wood framing members are between 18% to 30%
    Drywall Mud, Plaster, Thinset, Morter, Concrete and Paint are at 70% to 80%

    Mold is every where, and will be here till the end of time.
    If not for mold and termites.... this would would be a ugly place....
    KM throw all of the qualifiers out the window. The long and short of it I can install it wrong and have it support mold growth. Remember you represent a small fraction of insulators around the country. The installer that gets paid by BAGS/BARRELS of the truck doesn't share your level of dedication and besides tomorrow he'll be installing ventilated shelving.

  3. #16
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Rydal,Ga
    Posts
    84

    Thanks...

    Thanks.....

  4. #17
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    63
    I found the article using my library on-line magazine feature. I can send it to you if you like, Kenny.

    The study was of 4 buildings which had occupant complaints- 2 health related, 2 structural (warping of OSB).

    Is this the only study of cellulose insulation problems?

    And yes, it's dusty, but certainly safer than the other popular choice,fiberglass. Which is why I don't understand why people who work around insulation wouldn't prefer CI.

  5. #18
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    63
    I received this reply from Dan Lea of CIMA about the referenced study:

    Dr. Godish was hired by fiber glass companies to write a hit piece paper on cellulose insulation to support their bogus claims that cellulose insulation promotes mold growth. Since mold can grow on anything, including cellulose insulation, under the right conditions he was able find cases and report them. We, In turn, hired one of the nation’s leading toxicologists to do a paper on mold in fiber glass insulation. He too had no trouble finding cases to report. (All the widely-reported cases of mold contamination of insulation involve fiber glass.) The fact is that you can find isolated cases to prove any point you want to make.

  6. #19
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Rydal,Ga
    Posts
    84

    Thanks Guys !!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by jax1 View Post
    I received this reply from Dan Lea of CIMA about the referenced study:

    Dr. Godish was hired by fiber glass companies to write a hit piece paper on cellulose insulation to support their bogus claims that cellulose insulation promotes mold growth. Since mold can grow on anything, including cellulose insulation, under the right conditions he was able find cases and report them. We, In turn, hired one of the nation’s leading toxicologists to do a paper on mold in fiber glass insulation. He too had no trouble finding cases to report. (All the widely-reported cases of mold contamination of insulation involve fiber glass.) The fact is that you can find isolated cases to prove any point you want to make.
    Thanks.... if you could forward me that would be great... or i can getDan to as well

    Somebody must be paying "classical"

  7. #20
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    North Richland Hills, Texas
    Posts
    14,915
    Wet fill cellulose insulation in a wall cavity = good thing.

    Loose fill cellulose blown all over the floor of an attic that has air handling equipment and a duct system I have to service or change out = really amazingly annoying thing.

    After years of cooking in a Texas attic, even the slightest disturbance of loose fill cellulose insulation kicks up tons of dust that sticks to everything. The boric acid in it makes it very irritating to the sinuses too.

    Its better to work around than mineral wool insulation, but I'll take Owens Corning Insulsafe or ThermaCube loose fill fiberglass over loose fill cellulose any day.
    If more government is the answer, then it's a really stupid question.

  8. #21
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Rydal,Ga
    Posts
    84

    Mark....Don't be mad at the Cellulose... Who put the HVAC up there to start with???

    Quote Originally Posted by mark beiser View Post
    Wet fill cellulose insulation in a wall cavity = good thing.

    Loose fill cellulose blown all over the floor of an attic that has air handling equipment and a duct system I have to service or change out = really amazingly annoying thing.

    After years of cooking in a Texas attic, even the slightest disturbance of loose fill cellulose insulation kicks up tons of dust that sticks to everything. The boric acid in it makes it very irritating to the sinuses too.

    Its better to work around than mineral wool insulation, but I'll take Owens Corning Insulsafe or ThermaCube loose fill fiberglass over loose fill cellulose any day.
    Mark....Don't be mad at the Cellulose... Who put the HVAC up there to start with???

    Next time your in a fiberglass attic... turn the lights out.... and shine a flash light across the attic and watch it glisten !!!!

    I do not even let my family walk thru the insulation section at HD or Lowes.

    Funny thing.... you have to be 18 to buy a pack of cigarettes.... but you can buy a sack of fiberglass at any age !!!

  9. #22
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    out in the country
    Posts
    633
    I'd rather crawl thru an attic full of cellouse, than an attic full of fiberglass anyday. The dust will wash off, the fiberglass won't.
    I never let schooling interfere with my education... Mark Twain

  10. #23
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    North Richland Hills, Texas
    Posts
    14,915
    Forgot to mention, the dust from loose fill cellulose kinda irritates my skin after a while, and lets not even talk about starting up a fan to move some air around while working...

    Insulsafe doesn't itch, and ThermaCube mostly stays in its little clumps.

    Quote Originally Posted by kenny mac View Post
    I do not even let my family walk thru the insulation section at HD or Lowes.

    Funny thing.... you have to be 18 to buy a pack of cigarettes.... but you can buy a sack of fiberglass at any age !!!
    Fiberglass only causes cancer in California, so you are safe there in Georgia.
    Last edited by mark beiser; 07-29-2008 at 12:07 AM.
    If more government is the answer, then it's a really stupid question.

  11. #24
    The "study" outlined above is crap. The study indicates it was reported[/U] that the WSACI contained borate, but that is not the same thing a confirming that it did. Lots of WSACI installed when the product first came on the market did not contain a fungistat. Because of this lack of a fungistat, mold problems occured and the fungistat was added. Most, if not all, WSACI manufactured in the last several years has had a fungistat.

    Secondly, how did they determine what was elevated on their mold data, i don't see any background data.

    WSACI is no different that any other building material, applied correctly it is great, done wrong, it is bad. I have seen mold growth on just about every building material immaginable....this, therefore, does not mean that all building materials are bad.

  12. #25
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Naples, Fl
    Posts
    889
    Quote Originally Posted by SCI1 View Post
    WSACI is no different that any other building material, applied correctly it is great, done wrong, it is bad. I have seen mold growth on just about every building material immaginable....this, therefore, does not mean that all building materials are bad.

    EXACTLY!

  13. #26
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Rydal,Ga
    Posts
    84

    I started to post about all this BS.....

    Quote Originally Posted by SCI1 View Post
    The "study" outlined above is crap. The study indicates it was reported[/U] that the WSACI contained borate, but that is not the same thing a confirming that it did. Lots of WSACI installed when the product first came on the market did not contain a fungistat. Because of this lack of a fungistat, mold problems occured and the fungistat was added. Most, if not all, WSACI manufactured in the last several years has had a fungistat.

    Secondly, how did they determine what was elevated on their mold data, i don't see any background data.

    WSACI is no different that any other building material, applied correctly it is great, done wrong, it is bad. I have seen mold growth on just about every building material immaginable....this, therefore, does not mean that all building materials are bad.
    I started to dissect that report... I have a certification in Mold Assessment and Remediation (WORTHLESS)
    It is so convoluted it is sickening.... I had rather take all that energy and find "GODISH" & whip his ass

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