Unequal Replacement?

[CJS]

My 3 ton Goodman coil (H-36F) was replaced under warranty. I was surprised to peek in the attic to find it had been replaced with a 1.5-2 ton coil (CSCF1824N6). Both the installer and the Goodman distributor insist that this is the correct replacement for the 3 ton coil installed in 2003.

Is this fair, and how do I solve the problem if the installer and distributor stick to their story? No response from Goodman Manufacturing customer service ...

[beachtech]

what is the model number of your OD unit?

[aintitfun]

Actually it is possible that you have the correct coil, Get us the model # of the outdoor unit. If it is a 10 seer, and they have installed a 13 seer coil inside, it may be around a 2- ton and still be matched.

[CJS]

The outdoor unit is indeed a 10 SEER 2.5 ton Ruud (UAFD-031JAS), and yes their argument is that they've given me a compatible coil and thus fulfilled their obgligation.

HOWEVER, my argument isn't whether they've given me a coil that will operate with my condenser. My argument is that they have to warranty what was purchased (a 3 ton coil) with the exact equivalent (a 3 ton coil). The warranty is on the equipment, not on system compatibility.

I'm not an expert, but I know that a coil that has cooling capacity of 18,000-24,000 BTU per hour is not equal to one with capacity of 36,000 BTU per hour. Let's say my next move was going to be upgrading my 2.5 ton condenser to a 3 ton condenser (in fact the installer bid on this too). Will that 3 ton condenser have the same cooling power with an 1824 coil as with a 3 ton coil?

To carry the argument to the extreme, if I said I don't even want this AC system up and running and I'm throwing my condenser in the trash, does Goodman not still owe me a new 3 ton coil?

The warranty doesn't say they can give me a replacement condenser that is minimally sufficient to operate with the condenser I have at the time - it says they have to replace broken equipment under warranty. Am I wrong about this?

Thanks

[beenthere]

Actually, your wrong. Read the Goodman warranty. Its on a matched system.
The warranty says, "Properly Matched System".

Your original Goodman evap coil was not a proper match to a Ruud condenser.
Neithr is this one.
But Goodman can void the warranty because of the match if they want.

It sounds like the contractor that put the original Goodman coil in, just put in what he could get.

[beenthere]

Actually, your wrong. Read the Goodman warranty. Its on a matched system.
The warranty says, "Properly Matched System".

Your original Goodman evap coil was not a proper match to a Ruud condenser.
Neithr is this one.
But Goodman can void the warranty because of the match if they want.

It sounds like the contractor that put the original Goodman coil in, just put in what he could get.

[CJS]

Beenthere, thanks for taking time to respond, I appreciate it. I'm holding the Goodman warranty certificate in my hand, and the words "match" and "matched" do not appear at all. There is no language at all alluding to the matchup of condenser and coil.

Here's what it does say: "We will exchange any warrantied defective functional part or compressor that we furnished, upon presentation of said defective part to our distributor, by a certified or licensed technician."

[beenthere]

I don't have any old copies of Goodman warranty. I can only tell you what the new warranty papers say.

Double check the wording on yours again. Could be further down the paper.

You may have a leg to stand on. But hard to say, when it comes to mismatch equipment.

[aintitfun]

With your current system you are not likely loosing capacity because the surface area of 13 seer coil will allow for a higher tonage 10 seer unit to be connected to it without lost capacity. They are under no obligation to make your system compatible, for future installation of any new equipment. (goodman, that is) And as it has been mentioned, they could have voided your warranty anyway, for it not being part of a matched install, my guess is, they may bring that to your attention, if it goes any further. Besides, if you are thinking about changing equipment, you will most likely get an R410a system with higher efficiency and different refrigerant, so you would need a new compatible coil anyway.

[beenthere]

Too bad, that new coil isn't any good for a new Goodman 2.5 ton condenser.

[CJS]

Before the 3 bidders on the 3-ton coil replacement knew it was going to be warrantied, they all proposed new 3 ton coils to go with the 2.5 ton condenser.

[aintitfun]

Before the 3 bidders on the 3-ton coil replacement knew it was going to be warrantied, they all proposed new 3 ton coils to go with the 2.5 ton condenser.

your point being?

[CJS]

The only equal replacement of a 3 ton coil with 36k btu cooling capacity is another 3 ton coil with 36k btu cooling capacity. SEER equivalence and matchup to condenser have nothing to do with the manufacturer's binding obligation to exchange the defective 3 ton coil.

The warranty doesn't say "we will replace a defective unit with a SEER-equivalent unit," and it doesn't say "we will replace a defective unit with a unit that's minimally adequate to operate with whatever condenser the owner has." Instead, it says the manufacturer will exchange a defective unit, period. No court will accept that the obligation has been fulfilled with a coil that has no more than 2/3 the cooling capacity of the original.

I guess this is more of a contract issue than an HVAC technical issue. Thanks to all for your input.

[beenthere]

Keep in mind. That it is not Goodman that has done this.
It is your contractor, and the distributor that has done this.
Good chance, the distributor, is a private distributorship, and not a Goodman owned distributorship.

Did you actually speak to the distributor, or did your contractor just tell you they said it was the right one.

[aintitfun]

The only equal replacement of a 3 ton coil with 36k btu cooling capacity is another 3 ton coil with 36k btu cooling capacity. SEER equivalence and matchup to condenser have nothing to do with the manufacturer's binding obligation to exchange the defective 3 ton coil.

The warranty doesn't say "we will replace a defective unit with a SEER-equivalent unit," and it doesn't say "we will replace a defective unit with a unit that's minimally adequate to operate with whatever condenser the owner has." Instead, it says the manufacturer will exchange a defective unit, period. No court will accept that the obligation has been fulfilled with a coil that has no more than 2/3 the cooling capacity of the original.

I guess this is more of a contract issue than an HVAC technical issue. Thanks to all for your input.

What we are trying to tell you though is that the 13 seer coils are physically larger, and in most cases a lower capacity 13 seer coil is a closer and correct match for a 10 seer application than the 3 ton 13 seer would be. Lets face it you are not planning to change the equip. out anyway so it is kind of a mute point. But with your current system you are still getting your full 30,000 btu @10 seer even though the coil is rated lower, that btu rating of the coil is @ 13 seer which you do not have. YOU HAVE NOT LOST CAPACITY! By the way, remember you have a 2.5 ton condenser, it is a 30,000 btu system.

[classical]

First coils do not produce BTU's they are nominally rated for tonnage strictly as a means of identification. Coils also do not have SEER ratings condensing unit have SEER ratings and those ratings are affected by the coil choice. A 3-ton condensing unit may have a nominally rated coil of 2-tons or 5-tons and could be a matched system; it depends on what you are trying to accomplish with the match.

The coil you had before was no more or less compatible than the new coils is. You need to get over it and accept what you have, a qualified expert in court would destroy any chance you have of winning.

[CJS]

Beenthere, I first contacted the installer and let him know that when I accepted his proposal to "warranty the 3 ton coil," I expected a 3 ton coil in its place. His office said the 2 ton coil is the correct replacement, and call the distributor if I wanted to hear it from them. So I called the distributor and they said the same thing.

You are absolutely right, it is Goodman Manufacturing that promised to exchange the defective coil, and they have no idea any of this has taken place. I suspect they will agree that to "warranty a 3 ton coil" means to provide a new 3 ton coil.

As for the respondent who said I'm not planning to upgrade the condenser, I don't know why you assumed that (maybe I misunderstood you). I have three written estimates from three different contractors to replace the 2.5 ton 10 SEER with 3 ton units, two of which are 13 SEER and one estimate for a 14 SEER. Now that I'm stuck with a 2 ton coil, which I never agreed to receive, those condenser options are not possible.

Are there any HVAC technicians on here who would be satisfied if this situation happened to them in their own home? Can any of you tell me that you wouldn't fight to have a 3 ton coil warrantied with nothing less than another 3 ton coil?

[jid1877]

Beenthere, I first contacted the installer and let him know that when I accepted his proposal to "warranty the 3 ton coil," I expected a 3 ton coil in its place. His office said the 2 ton coil is the correct replacement, and call the distributor if I wanted to hear it from them. So I called the distributor and they said the same thing.

You are absolutely right, it is Goodman Manufacturing that promised to exchange the defective coil, and they have no idea any of this has taken place. I suspect they will agree that to "warranty a 3 ton coil" means to provide a new 3 ton coil.

As for the respondent who said I'm not planning to upgrade the condenser, I don't know why you assumed that (maybe I misunderstood you). I have three written estimates from three different contractors to replace the 2.5 ton 10 SEER with 3 ton units, two of which are 13 SEER and one estimate for a 14 SEER. Now that I'm stuck with a 2 ton coil, which I never agreed to receive, those condenser options are not possible.

Are there any HVAC technicians on here who would be satisfied if this situation happened to them in their own home? Can any of you tell me that you wouldn't fight to have a 3 ton coil warrantied with nothing less than another 3 ton coil?

I think I am starting to see what you are trying to do here. You are trying to get a free upgrade to a 13 seer coil so you don't have to buy one when you upgrade to a 3 ton. You would have had to buy one any way if the coil didn't go bad.

[aintitfun]

I think I am starting to see what you are trying to do here. You are trying to get a free upgrade to a 13 seer coil so you don't have to buy one when you upgrade to a 3 ton. You would have had to buy one any way if the coil didn't go bad.

Now it is all coming together, couldnt figure out why they couldnt get past the fact that the coil was matched to current system. A somethin for nothin sorta deal, should have seen that one coming.

[jjer]

3 bidders for a warranty coilWhen will we start charging for estimates??