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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    In a van down by the river.
    Posts
    55

    Question Anybody running twins on their Dodge CTD?

    More accurately, compound turbos.

    I'm currently running a single Holset HX35 hybrid and am leaning hard toward hanging an HT3B under the 35. I don't work the truck and will not be adding more fuel than the VE injection pump can put out with the OEM 12mm head.

    I've built the engine foundationaly speaking to include a majorly ported PDR head (195cfm in, 220cfm out). Said 12v head is O-ringed and held in place with A1 12mm studs. The engine has the typical high volume intake plumbing, charge-air plumbing as well as a 4" turbo back exhaust. 60# valve springs, titanium retainers and hardened keepers, blah, blah.

    My current set-up moves this 6400lb brick down the quarter in 13.95 seconds.

    The problem is my EGT's are Stupid-Hot at the end of the pass.


    I know this may be far from HVAC&R related but this forum board is for Other stuff as well, and I figure a few of you might be towing a load with the Cummins and might have added a second spinny thing to help keep it cool.


    Anybody?
    RTFM

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    239
    You're allready out of fuel, High egt's are usually a sign of too lean of a mix in the combustion chamber, adding the secondary turbo will only increase your egt's. You need to check your pump for maintained pressure at the higher rpm's, Ill bet the fuel pressure is dropping off to the injectors, you probably would do better to have your injector pump checked, of it checks good, with the mods you listed mostlikely a high volume pump would be the next change and re tune.

    99 2500 4wd
    stage 3 injectors and edge attitude programmer
    many other mods

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Egg Harbor Township New Jersey
    Posts
    32
    Well I can agree with what was said. Check your injector pump. Or you might need a better fuel pump too. Fass with a regulated return. I see you are fire ringed and other nice mods for you 24valve. Those inline 6 move out pretty good my brother has one with about 10,000 or more in mods. Your idea's, your only going to be able to move only so much air through the heads then your going to start killing it with extra heat from the rest. That might just be the whole reason why they use nitrous to make up for the lack of air too. I have a 04 Powerstroke 6leaker with some mods done. Tuning from Innovative Diesel, AFE Stage 2 CAI, Banks Intake elbow with intercooler. Head studs, Fass fuel system, MBRP turbo back exhaust and a few others mods. No doubt twins are awesome. but one worked single turbo is nice too. with 7' stacks on a Dodge look great.

    Good Luck, John

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    In a van down by the river.
    Posts
    55
    @ esdd: Forget that gasser mentality. The power of the diesel is directly related to the fuel input. As you know, we heat the air, forcing it to expand, resulting pressure moves the piston.
    So long as we stay below the plastic temperature of the aluminum piston, add air and required fuel such to limit the preturbo EGT's to . . . .say . . . . 1400*F at the end of a pass. 1250*F if you work the truck.

    The newer, more powerful Stock Cummins sport the P7100, VP44, etc injection pumps. I'm running the old-school 100% mechanical Bosch VE injection pump. With that I don't need no stinkin programmer.

    Let me be a bit more accurate with what's bolted to this heap.

    (Air in, air out) . . . . .

    - BHAF (Big Honk'in Air Filter) mounted in a custom built true 100% cold air intake.
    - 4" intake tube feeds a Holset HX35 Hybrid turbo (a 35 cartridge and turbine mated to an HX40 compressor wheel and housing).
    - 3" plumbing connects the turbo to a Banks inter-cooler.
    - Again, 3" plumbing then carries the charge-air to the head through a Banks TwinRam intake horn.
    - The head is ported such that it flows 195cfm in, and 220cfm out. It's O-ringed and mounted with A1 12mm studs. A 0.25mm over Cummins gasket is pinched in there somewhere. Cummins "60#" valve springs keep them in place with titanium retainers and hardened keepers.
    - The exhaust then flows out through an ATS 3 piece exhaust manifold.
    - A 14cm waste-gated exhaust housing makes the spinner thing go round.
    - 4" turbo-back plumbing takes the exhaust to a rather large and quiet high-flow muffler and companion resonator.

    Fueling is provided with ~
    - All 3/8" ID AN hose and fittings (AN6) supplies the erl from the pick-up in the tank, all the way to the IP.
    - I'm running a 2nd gen Cummins piston lift-pump (My stock LP provided up to 15psig fuel pressure, the 2nd gen LP provides up to 45+/- psig fuel pressure).
    - The fuel pressure is then reduced to 15psig after the fuel filter, before the IP, with an Aeromotive bypass type regulator. Again, all AN6. Fuel supply pressure is not a problem.
    - The Bosch VE injection pump is maxed with the main fuel screw run into just shy of "Run Away". The AFC is adjusted as much as it can be to clean up the pre-boost smoke. I'm currently running a 3200rpm governor spring (and may take that to 3400). The injection timing is advanced to 2.30mm. Stock is 1.4mm.
    - DDP4's squirt the mess.

    - Fueling is supplemented with two .625 Snow Water/Methanol injectors fed by a maxed Snow 220psig pump. I run a 50/50% mix. The W/M is modulated with a CoolingMist progressive controller.

    - There's a Fluidampner on the front of the crank to be sure though I'm currently not spinning it that fast . . . yet.


    Bunch of other crap.

    As such, It's at 363HP and 685ft/lbs on no.2. 394HP and 725ft/lbs with the W/M (to the ground). Stock is 160Hp and 400ft/lbs (at the crankshaft).
    At 6400lbs, it runs the quarter in 13.95, the eighth in 8.78 on 33" all-terrain tires.


    It's my understanding the 35 hybrid is only good for up to 350HP so I know I'm out of it's league. Way too hot at the top of the hill.

    I don't want the potential drivability issues that can be had with a big single (lag).

    Stock, the engine ran with a max of 19psig boost. I'm currently at 38psig. The engine is built to comfortably contain 70+/-psig. The twin I'm cypher'in will take me to about 60psig (with my current fueling) when combined with the 35 hybrid.

    Last edited by BC847; 07-14-2008 at 08:44 PM.
    RTFM

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Tulsa
    Posts
    290
    good to see there's a few cummins fans here!

    97 12V CTD here... only mod so far is 215 injectors with timing bumped to 16.5. that and KDP killed.

    waiting on stock torque converter to die before upgrading to triple disc.
    I've pulled 30k+ lbs with no problems. a buddy with mildly bombed 97 12v is pulling 400hp at the rear wheel with 980ft lbs torque. I'll be duplicating his mods on my 97 after the triple disc goes in.

    recently experimenting with running waste oils. that's ATF and engine oils. got far as 90% engine oils before clogging injectors. backing off to 50% waste oils for a bit.

    these old 12 valve cummins are super tough and tolerant of different fuels.
    Last edited by cy; 07-14-2008 at 11:58 PM.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    239
    To the majority of the conditions a diesel operates in you are correct, Diesels have no throtle plate in the air intake to maintain correct air/fuel ratio, essentialy the pulse width timing to the injector controlls how much fuel is injected. With the build that you originally listed the turbo has the ability to pack enough air into the cylinders to cause a lean burn situation and cause excessive egt. Now that the majority of the mods have been revealed, I still would look closely at the fueling. Do you have a blue flame out of the pipes at night ? With all the other mods listed, you are probably right to be looking at a two stage turbo, Just be positive you can feed it sucessfully. I have seen the effects of lean meltdown in a 2nd gen 24 valve isb due to not enough fuel. Fuel management and timing have more to do with egt than air input. Also another thought, from what I have read, aren't you running a little high on the methanol, Remember this is a diesel not an alcohol funny truck!! If you want really cold intake temps and tons of power look at lquid propane injection. Built a first gen to nearly your level, have a second gen 4wd putting 330+ hp and about 625 ft lb torque to the ground, would love to have a new 4th gen, but sticker shock is a killer at 40k+.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    In a van down by the river.
    Posts
    55
    Thanks esdd. See ya race day.

    Put it this way, I need more air to keep the combustion temperatures under better control given the current maximum volume of fuel.

    Talking with Mark of Piers Diesel Research (PDR) today, builder of their add-on "Kit", he confirmed I could expect to see about a 500*F drop in EGT's given my same fueling using the 35/HT3B. Perhaps a max EGT of 1200*F at WOT.

    Propane injection is another fuel. That which I don't need.

    The W/M is more commonly used to provide additional cooling . . . . . at a lower strength mix. Say 80/20% W/M. You need a little meth to help reduce the chances of quenching the flame if you will. Many folks run your basic windshield washer fluid. They average about 20% methanol.
    With a 50/50 mix, you can expect a decent boost in power (your mileage may vary) but you can forget about any cooling effect.


    For grins-n-giggles, about a 3% dose of nitromethanol, added to the W/M mix gives a notable kick in the pants.


    Before I forget . . . . again. I'm right at 8psig IP inlet fuel pressure at WOT, redlined. Well enough for the VE (max of 15psig . Anymore riskes blowing out an un-modified pumpshaft seal).
    Last edited by BC847; 07-14-2008 at 11:05 PM.
    RTFM

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Egg Harbor Township New Jersey
    Posts
    32
    WOW! You guys got some work and $$$ in your engines. Are you guys just drag racing or are you pulling also? Could you post some picks? I would like to see you trucks. Sorry I don't fit in with you Cummins Guys But I do appreciate a well built machine. I have a John Deere 720 tractor puller and a 93 First Generation Lightning Turboed and stroked it moves out pretty well. I wil be going to this event this Saturday. Alot of Dodge boys will be present.

    The Mason Dixon Turbo Diesel Club http://www.masondixontdc.com/ will be holding our 2nd Annual Diesel Drag & Dyno Day at Cecil County Dragway, Rising Sun, Maryland http://cecilcountydragway.com/ on July 19, 2008


    Have a good one, John

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    In a van down by the river.
    Posts
    55
    Here's my old heap, a 1993 Dodge W250 Clubcab (I'm the original owner).





    A not too long ago shot of the engine bay.





    Here I'm running at the recent "Mopars at The Rock" (Rockingham International Dragway)

    Click on image

    Here's the slip to go with it.





    And goofing around on the dyno . .






    My truck is by no means fast as compared to MANY of the newer Dodge CTDs. It does alright for a 1st generation CTD though.
    RTFM

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Egg Harbor Township New Jersey
    Posts
    32
    Sweet ride, My Dad had a truck just like that. Nice video too. Roll the coal!!!
    once again nice ride and Thanks for posting pic.

    John

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Tulsa
    Posts
    290
    SWEET... first gen!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by BC847 View Post
    Here's my old heap, a 1993 Dodge W250 Clubcab (I'm the original owner).

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    In a van down by the river.
    Posts
    55
    The parts to do this should be here by next week. I'll let you know how it turns out.

    RTFM

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    In a van down by the river.
    Posts
    55
    Just for good sport, I thought I'd update this thread . . . .

    I finally completed the sequential turbocharger install. As such, the wide open throttle exhaust gas temperatures struggle to reach 1350*F. That's down over 400*F







    To the ground is now 405hp and 840ft/lbs on number 2 diesel only (uncorrected numbers).





    Adding water/methanol only gives me an additional 60ft/lbs to the ground as I've now got to up its injection pressure to counter the additional boost pressure (65psig boost).





    Goofing around at the 1/4m track has the ET down to 13.90.

    It's quite fun to drive.
    RTFM

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