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  1. #27
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Ga.
    Posts
    5

    Thumbs up Never put your eggs in one basket.

    You might look at that title and wonder what I mean? I have noticed in HVAC, you can be "brand-stupid". What I mean by that is it is alright to be dedicated to a certain brand, to a point. Personally, I like Aprialire for filtration(2400 or 5000),dehumidification(1750) and humidification(600 or 700). Air-Purification I like Abatement Technologies (500UVP) and for zoneing I like Honeywell. If you need lights to tell you if a damper is opened or closed or you need a powered-open damper, we need to chat. I personnaly do not care who "made it first" I just care about who makes sense. I do not mean to insult anyone or degrade any brand, it is just what I have seen that is dependable,reliable and "customer friendly". If there is anyone in the field who has not "played" with the Honeywell YTH9421C1002-Check it out, it is worth a look! Boz
    Quote Originally Posted by pstu View Post
    Is there anything about the Aprilaire that makes it
    more able to handle zoning? I admired the pictures in the Aprilaire literature but always figured those creative ideas could be applied to any dehu.. with the exception of the bypass configuration (hope I am using the terminology right).

    Best wishes -- Pstu

  2. #28
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Posts
    11,808
    The aprilaire blowers can handle some static pstu as we have discussed, and yes I have seen them zoned.

    One installation method they show is the Bypass Method and I have found that to be problematic down here as it requires the air handler fan to run when the dehu runs. So this elevates RH as it re-evaporates mositure on the air handler cooling coil. It is better to let them have their own dedicated intake grille and then let it blow into the supply ducts and this installation is also shown in their manuals.

    I think you do see a lot of hype in the forums though, but I will give aprilaire credit, they publish a wide range of mositure removal against various entering air conditions and not just the standard 80F 60% rating.

    Aprilaire has a fan cycler control as well, but I think on another thread if you want to set your thermostat up high during the day, you are better off just shutting it off so it cannot run as there is a potential for the self sustaining scenario I was describing in the $900 thread.

  3. #29
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    4H: Hot, Humid Houston H.O.
    Posts
    3,304
    Is there something about the Aprilaire that is special that allows zoning? Is the stronger fan a factor? Is the controller equipped with different capabilities?

    Agreed, Aprilaire publishes ratings under a range of conditions and Thermastor uses just the standard. Agreed, Aprilaire has a stronger fan. And the big Aprilaire weighs only 100 lbs while the Thermastor weighs 150 lbs. That's the real reason isn't it, less physical labor for the professionals<g>?

    Best wishes -- Pstu

  4. #30
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Posts
    11,808
    If you are zoning it, it is probable that you have more duct work involved and you need some fan power.

    If it just has to move air free air in a musty basement it does not need any fan power.

  5. #31
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Madison, WI/Cape Coral, FL
    Posts
    6,432
    Quote Originally Posted by pstu View Post
    Is there something about the Aprilaire that is special that allows zoning? Is the stronger fan a factor? Is the controller equipped with different capabilities?

    Agreed, Aprilaire publishes ratings under a range of conditions and Thermastor uses just the standard. Agreed, Aprilaire has a stronger fan. And the big Aprilaire weighs only 100 lbs while the Thermastor weighs 150 lbs. That's the real reason isn't it, less physical labor for the professionals<g>?

    Best wishes -- Pstu
    The UA xt150H can survive 1" WG of duct pressure. This is twice of the Aprilaire. The UA uses half of the energy to remove 150 pints of water per day verses the Aprilaire. Yes it weighs more,so. If you want a little lite unit, check out the UA Compact for tight installs. The above info is bogus. Where do you guys get all this info? Regards TB
    Bear Rules: Keep our home <50% RH summer, controls mites/mold and very comfortable.
    Provide 60-100 cfm of fresh air when occupied to purge indoor pollutants and keep window dry during cold weather. T-stat setup/setback +8 hrs. saves energy
    Use +Merv 10 air filter. -Don't forget the "Golden Rule"

  6. #32
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Madison, WI/Cape Coral, FL
    Posts
    6,432
    Quote Originally Posted by Gotto View Post
    Well, if you were
    as far as power consumption, it is correct that the ThermaStor units do draw less power - which is only possible via their core, it was verified by other posts that the power consumption difference adds up to about $10-$15 max per month...what I don't see people commenting about is that if you try to take the unit appart, you ruin the seal around that core...which over time, will lead to moisture buildup inside the core and some nasty black mold buildup...I have seen some actual pictures from installations of this, none myself...

    MG
    Regarding cost of operation, we have a full spectrum of dehumidifiers. Some are similar to AA while our most efficient units remove almost twice as much moisture per kw as AA. Facing upto $.17 per KW could mean upto $2.00 per day in operating cost. In heavy load conditions this is $60 per month.
    Any cooling device dehu or a/c allowed to set around for days with a wet cooling coil causes mold to grow on the damp surrounding surfaces like insulation or other interior surfaces. Over a period of years the mold will be visible to the eye. Any surface that is washed by condensate is clean enough to not grow mold. Both spores and organic dust are washed down the drain. The aprilaires(AA) will grow mold on the surrounding surfaces inside the cabinet if the coil is keeped damp for extended periods of time. After the AA have been out long enough, you will find mold growing in the right situtuations. In all a/c accessories including all dehus, you need an air drying cycle to throughly dry the equipment every couple days. The safest way to avoid mold in all these ducted devices with cooling coils is operate the fan enough to dry the coils after using.

    Another day, we will answer the other issues raised by gotto
    Regards TB
    Bear Rules: Keep our home <50% RH summer, controls mites/mold and very comfortable.
    Provide 60-100 cfm of fresh air when occupied to purge indoor pollutants and keep window dry during cold weather. T-stat setup/setback +8 hrs. saves energy
    Use +Merv 10 air filter. -Don't forget the "Golden Rule"

  7. #33
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Ga.
    Posts
    5

    ?What?

    What? One minute those on here are worried about amp draw on a 15 amp/120v circuit and now we are concerned about physical weight? NO DISRESPECT BUT MAN! HVAC must have gotten ALOT easier up north than when I lived there if those are the 2 main concerns. By the way, if you have that many static pressure problems on your zone system, a dehumidifier is the LEAST of your worries! Anybody ever hear of a "dump zone powered damper or barametric damper" when zoneing? Like I said, no disrespect but if I did not know any better I would swear I was watching salesman chatting and not techs! Aprilaire is hands down the most reliable and can but put in multiple situations-what else do you need? Specs are nice but those are in a controlled enviorment-Georgia homes are ANYTHING but a controlled enviorment. I like teddy bear, he has his specs.


    Quote Originally Posted by teddy bear View Post
    The UA xt150H can survive 1" WG of duct
    pressure. This is twice of the Aprilaire. The UA uses half of the energy to remove 150 pints of water per day verses the Aprilaire. Yes it weighs more,so. If you want a little lite unit, check out the UA Compact for tight installs. The above info is bogus. Where do you guys get all this info? Regards TB

  8. #34
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Posts
    11,808
    Quote Originally Posted by teddy bear View Post
    The UA xt150H can survive 1" WG of duct pressure. This is twice of the Aprilaire. The UA uses half of the energy to remove 150 pints of water per day verses the Aprilaire. Yes it weighs more,so. If you want a little lite unit, check out the UA Compact for tight installs. The above info is bogus. Where do you guys get all this info? Regards TB
    http://www.thermastor.com/Ultra-Aire-XT150H/

    probably removes twice the water of the other thermstors, maybe you should just sell these

  9. #35
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Madison, WI/Cape Coral, FL
    Posts
    6,432
    This is the state of the art in dehumidifiers. 7.9 pints per KW is highest we make. We will work in these improvements in our other units. Glad you noticed. and thanks for the advice. Unfortunately, using a 150 pint per day unit on 75 pint per day job is expensive and some of the efficiency is lost. Fortunately, we have many sizes and styles to best fit the application. Regards TB
    Bear Rules: Keep our home <50% RH summer, controls mites/mold and very comfortable.
    Provide 60-100 cfm of fresh air when occupied to purge indoor pollutants and keep window dry during cold weather. T-stat setup/setback +8 hrs. saves energy
    Use +Merv 10 air filter. -Don't forget the "Golden Rule"

  10. #36
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Madison, WI/Cape Coral, FL
    Posts
    6,432
    Quote Originally Posted by Gotto View Post
    Well,
    What I found out is that the new Aprilaire unit, like the 1750 mentioned earlier, is designed to extreme durability & reliability standards, far superior to anything else out there at the moment, probably why they have a 5 year warranty and are touting a 15 year service life with the new improvements...

    Also, because I do see a lot of misunderstandings of ducting, the Aprilaire unit can be zoned, nobody elses does...it can be zoned to do a basement or separate living space as well as run in whole home mode...the only way you can possible do it with another system is a more complicated installation of relays to trick dampers into zoning...
    MG
    This sounds like the AA dehu intro where they discovered dehumidification. "Extreme durability & reliability" I guess the rest of us do not know what we are doing. This type of boosts are best proved by performance rather than marketing statements. The original model did not do that well. I never mentioned any of the problems. As all of us design, apply, and wear out equipment, we learn lessons, myself included.
    AA made another discovery by able to duct to different spaces. There is an attitude about all this that puts me off, sorry. Just goes to show that you can work hard at something for 18 years and come up short. There are a few of those 18 year old units operating yet and many are not. Miracles. Regards TB
    Bear Rules: Keep our home <50% RH summer, controls mites/mold and very comfortable.
    Provide 60-100 cfm of fresh air when occupied to purge indoor pollutants and keep window dry during cold weather. T-stat setup/setback +8 hrs. saves energy
    Use +Merv 10 air filter. -Don't forget the "Golden Rule"

  11. #37
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Madison, WI/Cape Coral, FL
    Posts
    6,432
    Quote Originally Posted by Gotto View Post
    Well,
    The biggest difference is that the Aprilaire unit has a patented ventilation control. First, because the Aprilaire ducted units have an internal humidity control, it can dehumidify the ventilation air at the point it enters the home...from what I understand, and things may have changed, competitive units would not dehumidify the air until the living space control registers the added load...loading the whole home first before dehumidification...again, controls may have changed since my last update...
    MG
    Another invented here deal and the rest of us are dumb smucks. Imagine this. It’s hot outside and the a/c is operating full bore. The ventilation timer is calling for fresh air even though the people are not home. The humid fresh air is being brought in through the dehumidifier. With the moisture sensor in the dehumidifier is activated. Brilliant? Not! The a/c has enough cooling load to handle the moisture in the fresh air. Operating the dehumidifier at this time adds additional heat uses a lot of extra electricity. These are the kind of things that lead to excessive energy cost. During peak a/c times, an additional $100 per month of electricity could be used with this control strategy.
    Like I stated previously, there is arrogance about AA claims & this analysis that says they are better than the rest of us smucks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gotto View Post
    Well,
    That's why the HVAC tied to the dehumid is a great option in some installations, especially in tighter, foam-seal, icynene homes. Finally something I agree with.


    I've got to go, this is getting to be too much and I think some of you may have already gone to sleep reading this...good luck...

    oh yeah, before I forget, remember that the new ThermaStor manuals & brochures tell you that the units are not suppose to be run above ambients above 100F, which elimates the south for the most part...at least if you actually spend time with contractors in the south...100F in an attic is an every day occurence...I guess the units would work in the midwest for most of the year, and and the north...

    MG
    There is no statement about ducted dehumidifiers in hot attics that limits our dehus to <100^F. Ducted dehus can be located in 140^F attics. The proformance of the dehu is determined by air in the space not in the attic. More mistatements. There is statement about operating non ducted dehu in high temperatures recommending limiting the dehu to <100^F. At 100^F, a 80^F dew point is 50%RH. Like I said before, there is an arrogance that about all of this... Let the market place settle these issues. Save these mis-statements for the salesman when they call on the contractors. At least, I will not have to hear them. MG, let's do this again, it was real productive. Regards TB
    Bear Rules: Keep our home <50% RH summer, controls mites/mold and very comfortable.
    Provide 60-100 cfm of fresh air when occupied to purge indoor pollutants and keep window dry during cold weather. T-stat setup/setback +8 hrs. saves energy
    Use +Merv 10 air filter. -Don't forget the "Golden Rule"

  12. #38
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Posts
    11,808
    Quote Originally Posted by teddy bear View Post
    Another invented here deal and the rest of us are dumb smucks. Imagine this. It’s hot outside and the a/c is operating full bore. The ventilation timer is calling for fresh air even though the people are not home. The humid fresh air is being brought in through the dehumidifier. With the moisture sensor in the dehumidifier is activated. Brilliant? Not! The a/c has enough cooling load to handle the moisture in the fresh air. Operating the dehumidifier at this time adds additional heat uses a lot of extra electricity. These are the kind of things that lead to excessive energy cost. During peak a/c times, an additional $100 per month of electricity could be used with this control strategy.
    Like I stated previously, there is arrogance about AA claims & this analysis that says they are better than the rest of us smucks.

    Thermastor has the greatest hype in this forum, probably triggering the flames from someone other than me.

    On that $900 thread, I agree that it could very well be the ventilation control that is driving up the RH. The problem is an owner in a well insulated home sets up the thermostat so high that it would never come on, on its own until it is time to recover for the "Return Period"

    So the vent system gets tricked to think it is a shoulder season and needs to cycle on to get some fresh air in there.

    Commerical programmable stats have dry contacts for occupied and un-occupied modes, maybe time for residential stats to have this can open contacts during the "Leave" or "Away" program setting.


    Quote Originally Posted by teddy bear View Post
    There is no statement about ducted dehumidifiers in hot attics that limits our dehus to <100^F. Ducted dehus can be located in 140^F attics. The proformance of the dehu is determined by air in the space not in the attic. More mistatements. There is statement about operating non ducted dehu in high temperatures recommending limiting the dehu to <100^F. At 100^F, a 80^F dew point is 50%RH. Like I said before, there is an arrogance that about all of this... Let the market place settle these issues. Save these mis-statements for the salesman when they call on the contractors. At least, I will not have to hear them. MG, let's do this again, it was real productive. Regards TB
    maybe he is confused with some note that says do not draw in air hotter than 100F, as in straight outside air in Dallas

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