$900 Electric Bill?!

[larobj63]

deisel generated here, we were up to about 45 cents a kwh when oil peaked, curious what the next bill will be

[Shophound]

Yep, it's cold outside now, but it'd be nice if the OP checked back in here to update us with his HVAC problem.

I somehow missed this thread when it was new. Having read the entire thing (skimming some parts), it offers more strength to the thought that a house is a system. The OP built a tight envelope with good thermal resistance, but can't keep the damn thing dry. I wish he'd come back and post some pics of his mechanicals vs. my attempts to puzzle together what he's got via mere description. If he's the GC for the house, seems like he could get the equipment specs from the HVAC contractor he hired.

Oversizing issues aside, I for one think his unoccupied setpoint is too high. If his house envelope was typical leaky fiberglass stuff, I'd say yeah, you might get away with both the installed tonnage and the 82 degree setback, but this is a house said to "hold temperature well". So why set up that drastically? Even with that house being tight, and well insulated, it's a voluminous space. Lots of surface real estate and air volume to deal with. The air has to be cooled and dehumidified, the interior surfaces have to drop in temperature along with the air temperature for the occupants to feel truly comfortable.

At most I'd go with a 74 to 78 setback spread. No higher.

Kill the dehumidifiers during high a/c season and bring in fresh air only when either it is pumped through a dehumidifier or a running a/c return air plenum. Don't ever dump raw outdoor air into a house in Houston in summer. I don't even do it up here in DFW, even if my summer dewpoints run lower than Houston's, on average. It's about equivalent to opening a window and then wondering why the indoor humidity levels are spiraling out of control.

The OP may have taken remedial steps by now, but if this thread were still fresh alongside hot, humid weather, I'd be saying "amen" to Carnak...figure out how the house is loading up with humidity, THEN worry about a reduction in installed tonnage.

[aaCharley]

You know I complained to my power company not more than 6 months ago because they were estimating my bill everyother month and there estimating was off by as much as $300 everyother month and low and behold they came into our neighborhood to change the meter to digital ones so now I have a actual reading every month. I basiscally told them I am not in the bussiness to give them a loan of $300 everyother month and be held responsible to pay those charges when I didn't actuall use that much power. You have the power to change there ways by either reading the meter yourself or tell them you want your meter read every month for accuracy, I bet they will be in your hood to replace the meter to digital meters. I am still debating on weather or not to file class action suit against them for the way they were reading the meters and over charging on there estimating. I would suggest you read your meters for the power companies so you only pay for what you use, period end of story, unless there pretty accruate in doing there estimating.

I don't work for any power company so I'm not trying to particularly defend them. I believe your logic is faulty. They do not try to over or under estimate your useage. Whenever they do actually read your meter it all gets balanced out anyway. More frequent readings increase the costs that you pay for service - is that a good thing?

Assuming that they did over charge you by $300 for a month, and then gave it back the next month, your cost for that is about $7.50 a year, assuming 5% interest rates. Changing out the meter will have a cost. Probably several hundred for the meter and labor. That will be included in your rate over time. Why would you believe that it will save you money in the way you seem to suggest? Possibly it will allow them to gather the meter readings at less cost by simply driving by and using an electronic system to query your meter for a report.

[Carnak]

Yep, it's cold outside now, but it'd be nice if the OP checked back in here to update us with his HVAC problem.

I somehow missed this thread when it was new. Having read the entire thing (skimming some parts), it offers more strength to the thought that a house is a system. The OP built a tight envelope with good thermal resistance, but can't keep the damn thing dry. I wish he'd come back and post some pics of his mechanicals vs. my attempts to puzzle together what he's got via mere description. If he's the GC for the house, seems like he could get the equipment specs from the HVAC contractor he hired.

Oversizing issues aside, I for one think his unoccupied setpoint is too high. If his house envelope was typical leaky fiberglass stuff, I'd say yeah, you might get away with both the installed tonnage and the 82 degree setback, but this is a house said to "hold temperature well". So why set up that drastically? Even with that house being tight, and well insulated, it's a voluminous space. Lots of surface real estate and air volume to deal with. The air has to be cooled and dehumidified, the interior surfaces have to drop in temperature along with the air temperature for the occupants to feel truly comfortable.

At most I'd go with a 74 to 78 setback spread. No higher.

Kill the dehumidifiers during high a/c season and bring in fresh air only when either it is pumped through a dehumidifier or a running a/c return air plenum. Don't ever dump raw outdoor air into a house in Houston in summer. I don't even do it up here in DFW, even if my summer dewpoints run lower than Houston's, on average. It's about equivalent to opening a window and then wondering why the indoor humidity levels are spiraling out of control.

The OP may have taken remedial steps by now, but if this thread were still fresh alongside hot, humid weather, I'd be saying "amen" to Carnak...figure out how the house is loading up with humidity, THEN worry about a reduction in installed tonnage.

it was definitely a self sustaining problem triggered by him setting up the temmperature too high.

[DanW13]

I don't work for any power company so I'm not trying to particularly defend them. I believe your logic is faulty. They do not try to over or under estimate your useage. Whenever they do actually read your meter it all gets balanced out anyway. More frequent readings increase the costs that you pay for service - is that a good thing?

Assuming that they did over charge you by $300 for a month, and then gave it back the next month, your cost for that is about $7.50 a year, assuming 5% interest rates. Changing out the meter will have a cost. Probably several hundred for the meter and labor. That will be included in your rate over time. Why would you believe that it will save you money in the way you seem to suggest? Possibly it will allow them to gather the meter readings at less cost by simply driving by and using an electronic system to query your meter for a report.

Problem is that never happened, when they estimated your monthly usage you were charged for you were responsible for that amount and they never deducted the overage from the actual reading the next month. As far as the meter charge is concerned you do not get charged for that cost as that is part of there maintinece that your are charged for everymonth regardless of usage so that is minimal cost, with the electronic meters one guy can read probably 5 times the amount of meters then waht he could by walking on foot reading meters. So for them to change out the meters is a win win for the powere company and for the customer.

[pstu]

AACharley describes accurately the way utilities read meters. In at least one aspect I think you DanW13 are mistaken:

>>when they estimated your monthly usage you were charged for you were responsible for
>>that amount and they never deducted the overage from the actual reading the next month

In the past I did work for an electric utility and learned a lot about the business. But don't think I'm the kind of person who will defend them when wrong, I would actually use my knowledge to be more critical of a utility when deserved. Your case is one where it becomes important that the meter reader does not directly measure your billing amount. Instead, he measures the KWH which begins when the meter is installed and grows endlessly until the meter is removed. Myself I read my meter often, and when I have read on the official monthly "Meter Read Date", I can find my number on the bill. From that is subtracted the previous reading from a month ago, and the DIFFERENCE is what is billed. Any one month there is an estimate or error, the following month corrects for it.

That is the only way to do honest billing for KWH. With the regulatory oversight of the state PUC, you can be sure the utility does this right. In fact if you are convinced the utility is wrong, you can make a formal complaint against the utility to the PUC and it *will* be taken seriously just as long as you stick to the facts.

If you take a look at any 3 months billing, you can see the meter readings I am speaking of (in my state, I presume in every state) and see for yourself how any estimate in the middle, results in a fair correction the month after.

One of my friends did ask for a different meter, and he paid handsomely to get that. So a charge to change the meter does sometimes happen. But you are correct in saying that a change to an advanced meter, results in far higher productivity for the meter read process.


Hope this helps -- Pstu

[aaCharley]

Problem is that never happened, when they estimated your monthly usage you were charged for you were responsible for that amount and they never deducted the overage from the actual reading the next month. As far as the meter charge is concerned you do not get charged for that cost as that is part of there maintinece that your are charged for everymonth regardless of usage so that is minimal cost, with the electronic meters one guy can read probably 5 times the amount of meters then waht he could by walking on foot reading meters. So for them to change out the meters is a win win for the powere company and for the customer.

Your understanding of how the billing works is simply flawed.
You first have an initial reading.
They could estimate and bill you for three months without making the three readings. You pay those three bills. Based upon the estimate, the calculate a meter reading that should be shown.
They read the meter in the fourth month. Whatever that difference is from the calculated estimate is what you pay for the fourth month. It could be more or less than you actually used in that month. The total of the Kwh that you have paid for over the four month period is correct and and the $$$ amount is no different from what it otherwise would have been. Sure, there could ahve been some slight difference in the timing of the payment.

it is interesting that you think, first, that you are not charged for the meter change out. But then acknowledge that the cost WILL be incorporated in the bill over time. My point was that the meter change was not free and would not save you anything compared to slight interest you possibly could earn from the payment timing difference. If there are savings those will result from the lower labor cost involved in the meter readings. If a meter reader can now read five times as many meters (your estimate), then they will only need 20% as many employees for that job. They can save by having a layoff of 80% of the meter readers.

[beenthere]

Problem is that never happened, when they estimated your monthly usage you were charged for you were responsible for that amount and they never deducted the overage from the actual reading the next month.

When they read your meter the next month.
Your bill was that much lower, because youi already paid for some of the KWHs you used.

It just didn't show up as a deduct.

[beenthere]

What use to really bite.
Was when they estimated low.

[cem-bsee]

which meter reader has time to compute kwh used?
or measures kwh?

mine read the dials, then record the numbers --
computer back in co office computes kwh used --

again, compute kwh/DegreeDay/cu ft [of conditioned space]
-- deduct out the ave kwh of lowest month in spring & fall when HVAC useage is lowest -- before computing

[DanW13]

When the power company estimated by bill everyother month up until they came out and changed everyones meter in our town what I was charged based on estimated readings I was responsible to pay as if I didn't pay the full amount it was carried over to the next month which then was a actual reading, and the balance then add on from the previous month. I can tell you I am not imagining this as this is truely what was happening and there estimating was nearly twice what I normally used, and Had they estimated by bill close to my actual usage I would have never complained to them but I finally got fed up with the power company about there estimating and wrote them a very long e-mail which I did recieve a reply and not once did they ever mention that when they estimated my bill everyother month that the balance was balanced out the next when the actual reading was billed. Example: month 1 billing $300 estimated, month 2 actual $185 I never never had any credits on any billing when there was a actual reading. And all balances were carried over. When the heating season was over basically mid to late April I was still paying off a balance of maybe $600. But now that the new meter in installed and actual readings are taken monthly my bill has not reached any amounts over $150 which includes both NG and electric togeather. Now if anyone that has posted on this tread doubts what I have stated I do not have a problem showing you my billing prior to the new meter being installed.

[hvacalex]

I am going to be brief, because I have a lot of information to pass along. Bear with me.

4216sf 1 story home built 2 years ago (I am the builder)
Bio-base foam insulation throughout
Unvented, conditioned attic space (insulation on underside of roof deck)
Vinyl low-e windows, insulated doors, etc.
Two (2) 5-ton Amana Heat Pump units
Programmable T-stats set on 82 during the day, 74 overnight
Last month's bill - $688 (approx. 3900 KWH)
Prior month's bill - $461 (approx. 3000 KWH)
Two April Aire dehumidifiers
High bill - generally August / September - $900 +/- $50
No pool, no outbuildings, CF bulbs everywhere, on-demand water heaters

Recently had an energy audit performed. Was told I had one of the tightest houses they'd ever measured in the Houston area; somewhere in the neighborhood of 14% leakage. I went through the house with them with the FLIR camera; no hotspots. Duct leakage on the order of 10% on each system, but it's leaking into conditioned attic space, so I figure that's a wash. Basically beat the pants off the local Energy-Star homes.

Only thing we could figure is the HVAC system is WAY oversized. I had an analysis done prior to building the home, gave to the A/C contractor, they used it for toilet paper or something. I have since gone back and found that analysis and deciphered it, and it appears to show that I need 6.5 tons MAX. I purchased HVAC Calc prior to building, and spent a long time inputting all the correct information. It said I needed something like 4 tons total.

Unfortunately, I caved to the contractor at build-time, assuming he knew more than I did (mistake, apparently). So now, I can't keep the house dry (60% RH or higher, with two dehumidifiers running full-blast), the units short-cycle all day and night, and my utility bills are freaking ridiculous. We are about to pull the trigger on two new 3-ton units (or maybe two 2.5-ton units), and my question is this:

Where can I get some kind of idea what kind of energy savings I can expect? I mean, if two 5-ton 13-seer units are, say, $500/month, what are two 3-ton 14-seer units going to cost? Or two 3-ton 16-seer units? I've googled this, but I can't find a calculator that does what I want.

I live in houston too this is one of the most expensive energy in the whole USA....it's pretty much like that everywhere in houston ...cost too much energy

[adt2]

I'm back...did everybody miss me?

Sorry for the long absence, but to answer your questions: No, nothing has been done to my HVAC setup (yet).

Well, that's not 100% accurate. Based on feedback I received here last summer, I did decide to shut off my two dehumidifiers, and I disabled the fresh-air intakes on both attic units. These two things taken together seem to have improved the humidy problem inside the house. I guess one or the other of them was just drawing in outside air and filling the house with it.

I can post pics of the mechanicals if anyone thinks it'll help. I hadn't thought of lowering the temp setting during the day while no one is home; although that seems counterintuitive, I'll give it a shot.

I'm currently trying to get a couple of helpful pros who've previously commented on this thread to come out and take a look at my setup sometime in the next week or two. I'll keep you posted on the outcome.