2.5 Ton Trane XR14 VS Rheem RPNL

[dwynne]

I have been reading the site for a while and searching for info on the various products and found lots of good into, but nothing that asks my exact question .

My 2.5 ton heat pump compressor has died and the whole system is really old (air handler is a GE maybe 25 years old and still going), so time to move on to something new and more efficient. My problem is I have limited places to install the outside unit so I probably need to put it back where the dead system sits. The second part of the problems is the liquid line is 5/16" and is run in between the two floors of the house - both finished with no access to replace the lines without tearing out the ceiling in the basement.. I got quotes from several contractors but almost all are high or not desirable due to the need to relocated the compressor and run new lines and power. However, both Trane and Rheem / Ruud make 2.5 ton 410a systems that can work fine with the 5/16" line. So unless I want to pay a lot to move it to a less desirable location those are my options. The prices for these two systems are very close.

Trane 2.5 ton XR13 + 4TEE handler w/ECM motor = 14 SEER "in theory" using 410a

Rheem 2.5 RPNL (13 SEER) + 3.0 ton RHLL handler w/X-13 motor = 15 SEER "in theory" using 410a

I can also get the 2.5 ton RPNL heat pump with the 3.0 ton RHKL handler and the ECM variable speed motor for about the same price, 14 SEER for that combo.

I think the warranty is the same for any of these and the cost is in the same ballpark - within a couple of hundred.

The Trane has the variable speed ECM motor but in the 2.5 ton sizes does not have the scroll compressor.

The Rheem has the X-13 very efficient motor, but it is single speed with no ramp up or stop delay settings. Copeland scroll compressor.

The Rheem handler with the ECM motor is less efficient (SEER rating) than the X-13 Rheem and the same as the Trane and has the ability to be run via a humidistat and has settings for slow or full speed when in this mode. The Trane may as well, but I can't find the install guide for the Trane online - you can find EVERYTHING online for Rheem, which is nice. Scroll compressor on this one too.

In the past I have run the fan all the time to help balance out the temps between the floors and the rooms, so part of me says the Rheem with the X-13 is the way to go. That said, I have never had a variable speed blower before or a humidistat so I do not know what I am missing? If I run the fan all the time with any of these systems I will save a good bit of juice based on the specs I could find.

The quotes as written do not include a humidistat on the ECM motor systems, but I am sure both contractors would be glad to add that to the quote and install it with the rest of the stuff. It may make the installed a good bit cost higher than getting the X-13 system depending on the price of the stat and the need to run a new t-stat to handler control cable.

So is the "big name" Trane brand worth getting even if no scroll compressor? The X-13 motor specs show it is more efficient than the ECM but is just a tap speed motor while the ECM does the constant air flow thing and the spool up and delay stop and either system SHOULD be made to work with a humidistat. Some folks have told me that the ECM motor is better (than a standard motor anyway) even without a humidity sensor since the ramp up and optional delay to stop along with the constant CFM are all pluses even without the run to dehumidify option.

I was also quoted a Trane XL14i with the same handler with a 14 SEER but it is a LOT more (25%) than the other systems but I don't see a lot of improvement over the other systems for the extra money.


I don't think any of the 3 is a wrong choice in the bunch given how much more efficient this will be over the old system and given my line size and placement limits.

Thoughts from the pros?

Thanks!

[dj3901783]

RUUUUUUUDDDDDDDDDD, in my opinion, trane is not worth the extra cost, the trane 14i is a very good unit, but I'd go with Ruud/Rheem....

[dj3901783]

And if you have the money definitely go with the variable speed... there's a lot of advantages... only disadvantage is that if it does go out in 15 years it will be more expensive to replace... good news is that you'll have saved enough in electricity to pay for it by then, especially if you are using the fan in the on position...

[beenthere]

Which ever brand you choose. Get the VS blower.

[sjesp]

Bryant heat pumps are air conditioners that can also heat your home
The rock-solid Bryant Evolution Series heat pump offers Bryant's highest efficiency performance and most comfort options, and our Preferred™ Series and Legacy™ Line products provide economical comfort. Remember, the higher the SEER and HSPF ratings, the more cost-savings you can realize. Plus, you can add a Bryant gas furnace and enjoy hybrid heating.

[dash]

Which ever brand you choose. Get the VS blower.

Ditto,plus a control system/stat that will dehumidify in cooling.

[BaldLoonie]

Look at heating too. A-S/Trane heat pumps tend to be lacking there. In this case, your HSPF with that pump and air handler is just above the minimum at 8.00. The Rheem HSPF is a nice 9.25 with either air handler. Also Rheem has high & low pressure switches monitored by a board that will lock out the system after 3 trips. That is great compressor protection. In the past, Trane has avoided using such protection though being 410, there might be some control.

[dwynne]

Thanks for all the replies.

I could not find the Trane specs online, but had seen messages in forum searches about "weak" heat pump heating.

I am still not 100% sold on the need for the ECM motor, since the X-13 equipped Rheem would be more efficient to run in any case (always on or only on when heat or cool is commanded). I understand the ECM equipped system can be set up to run a lower speeds to remove humidity when cooling is not required, but if I end up running the blower full time to keep the whole house temps for more even then I will be using more current than if I had the X-13 motor and the replacement cost would be a lot higher. I DO like the idea of the constant air flow - set it to 1,000 cfm (or whatever) and adjusting register openings, forgetting to change the filters , etc should still result in 1,000 cfm. The x-13 motor just has 4 or 5 taps and you set it for the best choice but the resulting actual air flow may vary. Right?

In any case, lots for food for thought and I have to decide today.

Thanks again,
Dennis

[dwynne]

I forgot to ask, what is the opinion of NATE certification? Everyone in the forum always says the quality of the install is more important that the selection of equipment.

In this case, the Rheem dealer is in the "NATE Quality circle" with 75-100% certified techs, the Trane dealer does not appear on the list but is shown as a "Trane Comfort Specialist". Neither has any complaints with the BBB and both have been around a while but the Rheem dealer has been in business about twice as long.

Dennis

[beenthere]

The X13 is a good motor.
It uses more electric then the VS ECM.
It also can't speed up to give you set CFM if teh duct is slightly undersized like the VS can.
Nor do you get enhanced humidity control from it.
Don't run your blower 24/7 if you want low humidity in your house.
Use fan circ instead of fan on.

[dwynne]

Turns out the RHKL Rheem handler will be $550 more than the RPNL handler. That does not sound right, but maybe the distributor is sitting a pile of RPNLs and is offering a discount on the to the contractor or something.

To me, that takes it off the table and leaves my choices the Trane 14 SEER with ECM motor but non-scroll compressor and weaker heat or the 15 SEER Rheem with the X13 motor, scroll compressor, better heat, but no variable speed.

As far as running the fan all the time, I see where I can get an inexpensive T-stat that is programmable but also has a fan run timer on it to run the fan xx minutes per hour even if heat or cool is not commanded. Maybe that is a compromise between running the fan constantly for more balanced temps (but higher humidity) and running it only when heating and cooling ? I have an older Chronotherm III now so it is probably time for an update anyway .

Dennis

[beenthere]

You are teh one that must decide where to save now, and where to send extra later.

[dwynne]

Is "Comfort-R" just a function of the 4TEE air handler no matter what external unit is connected to it? From what the contractor says and searches I did here it seems the answer is yes.

My contractors proposal is just to install the XR13 and 4TEE and NOT a humidity control device but they seem to indicate that I will get benefit from the variable speed motor due to the air handler.

Later on, if I want, I could install a humidistat and have the contractor DIP switch off Comfort-R it would appear?

I can't find the Comfort-R guide or the installation guide for the 4TEE, but the Rheem variable speed handler seems to just have a fix ramp up speed and nothing similar to Comfort-R to reduce humidity unless you hook up a himidstat to it.

BTW, are they going to bring back the energy tax credits? If they do, the Rheem with the X motor would qualify for a $300 credit (should purchased it last year) .

Dennis

[beenthere]

I thnk you'll find that Rheem calls it Comfort contour.

The slow ramp profile is nice.
But with a humidistat, or thermostat that can slow the blower, VS blowers provide better comfort then the slow ramp does.
The slow ramp up waste time and electric on the hotter summer days, ramping the blower up slow, when it should be going to full speed quicker.

PS: A thermostat like the IAQ that can slow blower speed.is better then getting a thermostat and a humidistat to control the A/C.

[dwynne]

On hotter summer days won't a properly sized system be running most all the time anyway? If so, then the speed ramp up of comfort-r would not come into play?

I looked at the info on the IAQ and the installation instructions and it does not cover this exact set up. From searches here and the install doc it looks like you pull a jumper off the IAQ interface module and wire the DHUM contacts over to the air handler's dehumidify contact points? This should work with either the Trane 4TEE or the Rheem variable speed handler?

Wired like this, then the IAQ would close those contacts if the humidity is too high (even is the temp is OK) and cause the handler to run at slower speed (80%?) until the humidity drops? If the temp is too high then that overrides the dehumidify call and the handler runs and 100% until the temp is OK? Again, this should work on either brand's variable speed handler. In the case of the Trane, I could or should (?) have the Comfort-R setting programmed OFF (DIP switches?) since the assumption is that the IAQ would take care of the humidity and when cooling was called for so the handler should not ramp up?

Thanks!
Dennis

[beenthere]

At design or above design temps the A/C would be running constant.
But if design is 95, and its 90 outside, your A/C will be cycling. And at that temp, the humidity will already be down in the house. So a slow ramp up isn't needed under that ambient condition. It should go to full speed just about as soon as teh A/C starts in that temp.

A call for cooling doesn't over ride blower slow down. That would defeat part of the dehumidification control ability.

[AAAA HVACR]

HELLO,..

i havent looked up the specific equipment your talking about but i will say that trane equipment is by far superior,..so my advice would be to spend the extra $$$ .

is this an air to air heat pump?

single phase or three phase? (if its residential its probably single)

what part of the country?

i will also mention that all the bells and whistles are the first thing to go wrong,..anytime you try to make one thing do everything it fails,...thats the problem with heat pumps in general,...they dont cool good and the dont heat good,....they do both ok (i guess),...(you would get better results with a conventional ac and a seperate heat source)

and no,..i am not a trane salesman..(like the bryant dude that posted earlier)


AAAA HVACR

[beenthere]

HELLO,..

I haven't looked up the specific equipment your talking about but i will say that Trane equipment is by far superior,..so my advice would be to spend the extra $$$ .

AAAA HVACR

Far superior in what way. Explain.

The 13, and 14 SEER units are good, the 15 SEER is ok, The 16i, don't even go there.

[BaldLoonie]

HELLO,..

i havent looked up the specific equipment your talking about but i will say that trane equipment is by far superior

AAAA HVACR

Yea, that wimpy 8.00 HSPF of the Trane is far superior to the 9.25 of the Rheem

[dwynne]

I can't find the Trane air handler model number in the AFI database.

The heat pump is XR13 2.5 Ton - 4TWR3030A1 which check outs, but the quote lists the handler as 4TEE3F31D1.

The only match with the 4TWR3030A1 is with the "4TEE3F31B1" .

Anything different between the "B" and "D" models besides one letter ?

1106402 Active Systems XR13 WEATHERTRON TRANE 4TWR3030A1 4TEE3F31B1 31000 12.00 14.00 28600 8.00 15300 1 HRCU-A-CB 190 516

Thanks!
Dennis