HVAC wars....pipe fitters vs. electricians and everyone else!

[MatrixTransform]

It seems like every TRADE has its share of WIND BAGS including many in the Controls Trade who think they are a sort of Darth Vader wanabee that knows it all and try to control all aspects of a project and the people working on it.

yeah ...but especially carpenters that reckon they're controls guys

just cos you wear a black suit doesnt make you a ninja

[Control Man]

Only you could drag the CARPENTERS into a control discussion , is there any trade your not superior to ?

[MatrixTransform]

Only you could drag the CARPENTERS into a control discussion , is there any trade your not superior to ?

no

Get out of our way. Don't like pretenders devaluing the profession

[tridiumtech]

Time for some 'comic relief'...

"If A is success in life, then A = x + y + z. Work is x; y is play and z is keeping you mouth shut"
-- Albert Einstein

[Cagey57]

Basparky,
I will offer the following:

1. You can say nothing and let people think you a Fool or open your mouth and remove all doubt. Don't know who said this but take it for what it's worth. Too many people you work with "open their mouths" too much.

2. A wise man once told me "Beware the Man that doesn't know what he doesn't know".

I learn something new every day ! I tried to join the UA local and was told I didn't qualify because I had not served a "Union Apprenticeship", I had a State Journeymans License at the time (still do). Go figure ?

I freely admint that I don't know everything...however... I know who to call for top notch Technical Assistance in the areas where I lack knowledge or experience.

My job as a "Controls Guy" basically gets reduced to one principal function, "Make Sh!t work, Correctly ! Many times I have to do so inspite of prevailing conditions, poor engineering and sub-standard installation. In some cases the naysayers that tell me that I "am not quailfied" are the people that don't/can't identify what they did not do properly in their specific job (trade) and also have no clue what the actual problem is or how to correct it.

I have been called a "Code Monkey", "Techno-weenie" and worse by people that believe that if they can think it up the controls can make it do it.

Noncarborundum Illigitmi (Don't let the bastard wear you down)

I know who your boss is, I'm convinced he "Doesn't know what he doesn't know" !!

Matrixtransform, you are always entertaining ! Thanks, honest !

[basparky]

Thanks everyone for an interesting discussion.
Yeah Cagey57, we know who we're talking about. Upon reflection, I've learned to lighten up on this. They need what I do and I guess that's good enough.

[digo]

hahahaha I've been called a controls puke and a keyboard jockey.
I'm laughing all the way to the bank.

[MatrixTransform]

Thanks Cagey my aim is to be as funny as possible whilst blithely being a terrifyingly effective controls-puke.

Obviously I'm an utterly arrogant attention seeker. What I'm not...is a pretender that lies to himself , the industry, and his customers...or worse, lies to his peers.

Peers, is the operative word here.
when you can can walk up walls, assassinate the issues in darkness and silence, and dissapear without a trace...then I'll call you a ninja...and a peer.

Meh, this is only an online forum. To all you other ninjas here, I didn't see you come and go...but I can tell that you've been.

😊

[MatrixTransform]

hahahaha I've been called a controls puke and a keyboard jockey.
I'm laughing all the way to the bank.

...and in the eerie, smoky darkness of the plantroom as the wrecked bodies of plumbers and fridgies lay everywhere, all that could be heard was a sort of distant evil chuckle...and the chink of coins

[Cagey57]

...
They need what I do and I guess that's good enough.

Ignorance is difficult to deal with/tolerate. Keep your head down and excel, they will notice soon enough.

...when you can can walk up walls, assassinate the issues in darkness and silence, and dissapear without a trace...then I'll call you a ninja...and a peer... ��

Well, I can usually manage two of three, anymore the "walking up walls" thing takes too much effort.

With web access I can usually leave nothing more than records in the Audit History. Unfortunately a large percentage of customers have no clue what it takes to accomplish things on their BAS and they FREAK OUT when they get the bill for the execution of "Can you make the system do such and such ? " at service rates.

My Question is ; " Dear Customer, if I charge you $$$ or $$$$ to optimize your facility and save you $$$$$ or $$$$$$ a year in utility cost, why are you complaining about my fee ? You can't get that kind of return with stocks or mutual funds. "

Just sayin" !

[orion242]

What a waste of time, this thread is about as exciting as watching grass grow.

To the OP...leave that outfit and find something better if you think your that good. That that prick sink in his own $hit.

[Jamey138]

I never had problems with electricians now as for fitters well that's another story they always think there better then you. If I'm wearing a local638 shirt and a fitter sees me he will ask.....you a fitter? And I'll say I'm a B guy they just walk away. Its funny what doesn't take to weld? Ido it all the time. I would love one of them to try to service a unit.it's not rocket science what they do. A lot of lifting

[JCIman]

I never had problems with electricians now as for fitters well that's another story they always think there better then you. If I'm wearing a local638 shirt and a fitter sees me he will ask.....you a fitter? And I'll say I'm a B guy they just walk away. Its funny what doesn't take to weld? Ido it all the time. I would love one of them to try to service a unit.it's not rocket science what they do. A lot of lifting

Just tell them that fitters are basically toilet repair men. Of course, they will say, "no, that is a plumber". Then you say, "whatever".
Then ask them if they have any drains to unclog.

[tridiumtech]

I got into HVAC controls back in 1995 (anyone remember DOS 5.0 - and pushing, stretching your MEM allocation
to get your DDC tool .exe to run at 620K of memory! ;-) The 'Golden Days' of pneumatics was at it last gasp
back then (damper I/Ps was pretty much it). To me a 'fitter' were the 'artisans' of that old air-control world. I was distinctively astounded and amazed when I saw an abandoned 'state-of-art' "1950's era" pneumatic operator station (USAF Academy, CO) where they had a full time operator that oversaw all the dial gauges and control knobs to run the HVAC system. When you went behind the 'curtain' you saw the "pipefitter's" glorious work - all those copper pneumatic lines coming from all directions and neatly laid out with precision right-angle bends and carefully spaced out tie-down braces. All gracefully interconnected to the pneumatic control devices (yes, they did have pneumatic 'logic-blocks' back then). Those control pipefitters took pride in what they did. And they built it last.

Then someone like 'Bill Gates' and his company mess things up... ;-)

When I worked at Staefa Controls the Union Guys (God Bless them) would dis' us controls guys and say 'Hey
Stay-Far' (even spray-painted our ladders with their opinions). But you take it on chin, cause' you got to work
with them - the system has got to work in the end. When the Union guys keep pushing the buttons - I would tell
them to knock themselves out - go figure out low-voltage controls & wiring (1/2 of the electricians get the 4-20mA loop wiring wrong; & that 500ohm dropping resistor installed correctly?); figure out VFD drive setup, what causes chiller surge, pump cavitation; when a valve actuator control has to be N.C. or N.O.; figure out how to read a Sequence of Operation and put it into control logic (like those math word problems in HS algebra that made you
want to stick you pencil in your eye); what PID means and how to tune a loop; figure out how a digital computer works, what an O/S is; what a protocol is, ect. And when you figure it all out, then 10yrs later you get a new generation of DDC gear to figure out (eg, LON, BACnet, TCP/IP, Tridium).

So, knock yourselves, BAS controls can be that bad.

[supers_5]

I got into HVAC controls back in 1995 (anyone remember DOS 5.0 - and pushing, stretching your MEM allocation...

Yes! You sound like you're double my age, but I do remember those things. (maybe for a different purpose though) I have been programming and into computers since I was a child. My very first computer didn't even have a hard drive, and only a mono colour screen that had lower resolution then modern watches. Hell, my phone has more processing power then the next 4 computers. (yes the computer was more then half my weight....then again my computer now is still a good portion of my weight.. And I'm not a small guy. Lol)

I would love to see those pneumatic Controls. (I've only gotten to see a few small systems before, and barely touched them.) although my interest is more into electronic control. You sir, are probably someone that I could pick your brain for hours.

[safebustr]

I worked in a union shop for 18 years (IAM), we were considered multi-craft and expected to do it all. We worked under two basic sub headings, electrical and mechanical BUT we were cross trained to do it all. We ( I was a spark) worked closely with our mechanical counterparts and mostly got along. We did however occasionally get into a pissing match trying to prove whether a problem was electrical (electronic) or mechanical in nature. Them was the good old days.

[MatrixTransform]

Then ask them if they have any drains to unclog.

Plumber. $h!t flows downhill: payday is Thursday

Hvac. $h!t flows up and downhill: payday is Thursday

Boiler. Hot $h!t flows up and downhill: payday is Thursday

[simux]

I think the main point is that some people are driven to solve problems and the one's that can't blame others.

[tridiumtech]

One reason I got into HVAC controls field tech work was first, I find the mix of mechanical systems and computers fascinating (it has its headaches), second, got tired of the 'cube', and third, it's a big one, was to avoid the outsourcing game.

Hard to outsource your competent mechanical field guy, let alone the HVAC controls guy. Someone has got to
be on site, 'wear the boots and get hands on'. But I'd even seen DDC programmers and graphics guys sent over from India on big jobs (1/3 the pay). But those cats don't know or have the experience with the mechanical gear or startup commissioning.

There's been a recent rash of AI doomsayer talk (Elon Musk, Stephen Hawking, Bill Gates) that point to the 'rise of the machines' - the future of superintelligent machines. If your job is purely 'mental' (eg, coding, graphics, grunt paper processing, grunt task recognition) these guys are saying that the new 'outsource' will be the future superintelligent AI machine. Heck, they're working on an AI synthetic, algorithm-based, rule-based psychologist (benefit? - you can spill out your worst problems to a machine and avoid the embarrassment of telling it to a human). Who woulda thought?

If you reasonably keep up your HVAC control skills you'll always will be busy - tell "Hal' to kick the carpet...;-)

Getting tired of controls? There's always the energy field ;-) (hint: get your CEM)

[ross]

Wow what a can of worms, over many years of service I have met the bad, the ok, and extremely talented in all trades. not all electricians can be control wiring guys, not all pipefitters can be HVAC techs, and not all HVAC techs can be control guys.

goofer + truckdriver + filterboy + apprentice (plumbing wiring service tin take out the trash) + service tech + willing to listen and learn + desire to learn + remembering what you have learned + continuing to ask questions and not being s self centered cocky sun of a gun with a chip on your shoulder = a very talented tech that maybe able to do controls